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Re: Robin vs. DJ Ashba
faldor wrote:killingvector wrote:What does the release date of Chinese have to do with Robin touring with NIN? I also think to highlight the word "quit" is a bit unfair to the guy.
Robin re-joined NIN officially in April 2008 because there were no road plans in place for G&R in the foreseeable future. God know what Robin knew concerning the lawsuits floating around Axl. But the album was released in late November with no touring until 2010. Clearly, Robin had a chance to create music, get out on the road, and do something. I can't fault him for that. If anyone was privy to the techno-gadgets that Trent employed on that tour, you might understand why Robin was so excited to jump back in. It was quite an incredible event, surpassing even a U2 show (which Trent has pointed comments about their theft of his onstage technology).
I didn't say I blamed him for making the decisions he made. But I still view it as he QUIT Guns N' Roses. Because in the end, that's what it turned out to be. He went to re-join NIN on their massive tour. Great! Good for him. NIN stopped touring and it was clear that was going to be the case. I'm sure Robin could've easily picked up the phone and told Axl he'd be willing to rejoin the band at a later date. It seemed Axl left that door wide open. But that never happened, and GNR went onward and hired DJ to replace him.
Obviously we don't know all the details, but that's the way I view it from my house.
Ashba was hired in March 2009. NIN toured through September 2009.
By that timeline, it would not have been possible for Axl to offer the position back to Finck until he knew when the NIN tour was going to end. I don't think that was knowable in March 2009.
I suspect Axl felt the pressure to get someone on board or saw an opportunity to fill the position with a solid player and jumped on it.
You are entitled to your opinion, but considering the long delays in the release of Chinese, tours that started/ended abruptly, and long periods of inactivity, I don't fault Bucket or Robin from leaving to do something else.
I never said I faulted Robin or Buckethead for leaving the band. I said they both had their own viable reasons. Doesn't change the fact that they QUIT the band.
And again, I'm sure Robin could've called Axl and they could have worked something out to keep Robin in the band. It never happened, so Axl was left with no choice but to get someone to take his place. Robin was completely silent after he re-joined NIN, nobody knew what his plans were. At least, that's what we were told. If he had said, I'll come back to GNR once plans to tour/promote/etc. are finalized, I don't think Axl would've had a problem and he'd still be in the band. Richard Fortus made it clear while touring with Thin Lizzy that Guns was his top priority. Robin could've done the same, but he jumped ship and made NIN his top priority. That's fine, he had his reasons, and lord knows I understand he must've been frustrated by working so long on something and not to see it materialize. But Dizzy, Richard, Chris, and Tommy stuck around. Robin didn't.
Re: Robin vs. DJ Ashba
Bono wrote:-D- wrote:This is where u guys are wrong
A band is like a marriage, u stay in it for better or worse. Robin had no fucking loyalty and IMO absolutely crushed CD's release in a lot of ways.
So are you of the opinion that Slash, Duff and Izzy had no fucking loyalty? That they should've stayed on did only what Axl wanted when he wanted to and waited years on end to relase an album?
Robin was in the "band" for the better part of ten years and had nothing to show for it. The fact he lasted as long as he did shows tremendous loyalty.
Slash and Co left on different understandable terms. Robin was there for the check and fucked Axl over to suck Trent's dick one last time. I coudn't be happier that piece of shit is no longer in GNR. I finally was able to once again be a GNR fan.
Loyalty would've been doing it for free. U think he did it for free? FUCK NO> This guy is a fucking nobody ridiculously horrible guitar player who was given a golden opportunity to be somebody and to actually get to write and create... He chose being Trent's boot licker instead.
No respect.
I'm sorry D, but you have no idea what you're talking about. Your thoughts on Finck as a horribe guitar player are your own. You have no idea "why" he was there and why he left. He was in the band for 11 friggin years and had no album to show for it.
The marriage thing is completely off base; if it's a loveless marriage, no one is going to stay together. And it obviously came to that point. That's why we have a thing called divorce. Again, this is totally selective on your end because it's okay for the old guys to do it, but not Robin. And you're really justifying it on your own assumptions.
No one is playing for free. Sorry, that shit isn't happening. DJ is getting paid, is he a piece of shit too? All the old guys got paid. Are they pieces of shit?
Robin had a chance to make, release and tour music with Trent. He took it. GN'R hadn't finished a tour during his entire tenure. At least one of his solo's was replaced by Ron on the album. I'm sure this didn't make him happy. Axl did give him a chance to write and create music and Axl sat on it for ten years, for whatever reason, and wouldn't stop tinkering with it. I'm sure that pissed him off.
And it's funny that this "nobody, horrible guitar player" had two of the biggest bands in the history of rock wanting him in their band... Who's missing something here?
- killingvector
- Rep: 21
Re: Robin vs. DJ Ashba
And again, I'm sure Robin could've called Axl and they could have worked something out to keep Robin in the band. It never happened, so Axl was left with no choice but to get someone to take his place. Robin was completely silent after he re-joined NIN, nobody knew what his plans were. At least, that's what we were told. If he had said, I'll come back to GNR once plans to tour/promote/etc. are finalized, I don't think Axl would've had a problem and he'd still be in the band. Richard Fortus made it clear while touring with Thin Lizzy that Guns was his top priority. Robin could've done the same, but he jumped ship and made NIN his top priority. That's fine, he had his reasons, and lord knows I understand he must've been frustrated by working so long on something and not to see it materialize. But Dizzy, Richard, Chris, and Tommy stuck around. Robin didn't.
I think you assume a lot of detail of information when very little is known of how this transpired. We know Axl was surprised to learn Robin had begun working with NIN again, but we also know that this occurred during a period of prolonged inactivity in G&R.
We do not know what Robin's contract status was when he left. We do not know if any G&R plans were brought to the players for the forseeable future. We also do not know what communication existed between the camps after Robin signed to play, including whether Axl made inquires about whether Robin was committed to coming back after the tour.
We have heard many times how these players are left in the dark on the inner grumblings in G&R during these periods between tours. Robin was offered a chance to write and perform on an elaborate, extensive tour; his other option was to sit around and wait for G&R to send him contracts for a new tour which might not happen within the next two years.
Did Dizzy, Chris, Tommy, and Richard receive as attractive an offer? Loyalty is a bit of a slippery criteria to judge anyone in this band since everyone outside the front man is a paid, contract employee.
- monkeychow
- Rep: 661
Re: Robin vs. DJ Ashba
To play devils advocate.....
On the question of loyalty...there is some grounds to treat the old guys differently to subsequent members.
The old guys and Axl started a band from scratch. They built the brand. They created the works and they shared control equally (at one stage). Over time - this changed and the band became Axl's property.
Now that could be happenstance, manipulation, accident, stupidity...whatever...but I can see from the perspective of a Duff or a Slash they have moved from being an equal partner, to being an employee in something that wouldn't have existed in close to the same form without their original input, then add in a relationship-communication break down and you have a pretty legit reason to want to get out.
Later members, fink, bucket or whatever - joined the band knowing of these things. They know of axl's reputation in advance. They saw what happened on the UYi tour from afar, and they know the history of the band, they know they will only ever be there to facilitate Axl's vision to the best of their ability rather than any agenda of their own, they know it's not their own band strictly and they didnt help establish it in it's place in popular culture. In short. Its a very different situation.
Now i'm not saying it's right to be critical of robin and co. In some ways their situation is even more risky. Hey slash will always be slash from GNR. But Robin has to earn a buck as a muso - if GNR goes dark for 5 more years what does he do? so it's a mixed vibe...But i can see some logical grounds for saying the original members leaving the band is very different to when someone quits now.
Re: Robin vs. DJ Ashba
Here is another way of looking at it:
If Finck wasn't such a shit guitarist, maybe CD comes out quicker cause the great material wouldve been there.
I still hold BIG TIME to my theory that CD took so long to come out largely on the fact the material just wasn't up to Axl's high GNR standards. If CD,Maddy,The Blues were in fact THEBIG GUNS which i am pretty sure they were, my theory certainly holds water.
- killingvector
- Rep: 21
Re: Robin vs. DJ Ashba
I don't think there is much evidence to support that. Better was one of the best songs on the album and, musically, it was Robin's baby.
Robin's TIL solo is pretty damn great as well as his TWAT solo (although in that latter case I don't know if there was a previous version he was using as a template). His four other credits are equally impressive.
From my seat, until I hear a DJ contribution to G&R, I can't evaluate him as a recording member.
Re: Robin vs. DJ Ashba
BUT, how long did it take him to write "Better"
Let's say he didn't get that together till 2003-2004... that still delays the album
One great song *Better* in 10 years?
Not a very good ratio there.
Plus how well did those two singles do on the charts??
Exactly
- killingvector
- Rep: 21
Re: Robin vs. DJ Ashba
At this point, charting Chinese is not a worthwhile avenue to explore for a myriad of reasons.
Robin had song writing credits on seven tracks: someone can correct me if I understate the number. I can't find fault in any of those performances.
I can judge the man on the quality of the recorded tracks and his stage performance: the latter of which was fully redeemed in '06. If Axl felt he could do better, no pun intended, he would have found someone else.
Re: Robin vs. DJ Ashba
At this point, charting Chinese is not a worthwhile avenue to explore for a myriad of reasons.
Robin had song writing credits on seven tracks: someone can correct me if I understate the number. I can't find fault in any of those performances.
I can judge the man on the quality of the recorded tracks and his stage performance: the latter of which was fully redeemed in '06. If Axl felt he could do better, no pun intended, he would have found someone else.
Thank God he now has.
