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#1691 Guns N' Roses » Appetite for Self-Production » 807 weeks ago
- apex-twin
- Replies: 16
Whether there's a new GNR album in the foreseeable future or not, the most pressing factor shouldn't be who's going to play on it. More crucial in terms of release schedule is the producer, and all eyes are on one man.
But how does Axl produce his albums? His insistence to long hours, sporadic work-flows and continuous re-recording are well documented. What struck me was a TIME article on Dr Dre, the big daddy producer of hiphop. I realized Axl and Dre may actually share some characteristics as producers and Dre's comments may actually provide some insight to the maddening methods of Rose.
Dre on re-recording / sampling:
"'I want to be known as the producer's producer. The cellos are real. I don't use samples.' He says this with a touch of derision, as if sampling is a vulgarity in the producer's palette. "I may hear something I like on an old record that may inspire me, but I'd rather use musicians to re-create the sound or elaborate on it. I can control it better."
Axl didn't sample much on CD and the only known instances caused him a bit of trouble. The MLK lines on Madagascar had clearing issues back in 2001, according to A&R Man Tom Zutaut. The intro on Riad and the Bedouins was lifted from two obscure Ulrich Schnauss tracks, and lawyers got trigger-happy.
Part of Axl's insistence to re-record may be purely pragmatic. Instead of having to weave, say, a Buckethead original into a re-fitted solo by combing the archives for a week, having Ron in the studio gives him more levarage and the possibility to work the solo into a song, instead of having it the other way around.
But a lot of it has to do with plain old-fashion control. No-one beyond Axl is irreplaceable.
Dre on studio musicians:
"Every Dre track begins the same way, with Dre behind a drum machine in a room full of trusted musicians. (They carry beepers. When he wants to work, they work.) He'll program a beat, then ask the musicians to play along; when Dre hears something he likes, he isolates the player and tells him how to refine the sound. 'My greatest talent,' Dre says, 'is knowing exactly what I want to hear.'"
That's Axl. Instead of a drum machine, he comes with the occasional piano tune. But the basics have reportedly been the same. His session hands come in, record jams all night and Axl works on the parts he likes. Like Dre, Axl obviously knows what he wants to hear.
Unfortunately, neither of the two has the ability of studio oligarch Trent Reznor to pick up the instrument and play a servicable first take, which can be honed further by more established hands. That's why they need to wait for the players to go psychic, to learn what sort of tunes the men behind the console are looking for. What is the common Dre feel, or the GNR feel? Studio musicians are asked to absorb all that into their own sensibilities, which takes a while and doesn't always sound organic right off the bat.
Dre on studio time and the car stereo:
"'Put that on a CD real quick. Let me listen to it in my truck.' Dre works in spurts. This week he's had three studio sessions of 19 hours or more. Last week he did a marathon 56-hour session. If he didn't go to the parking lot for the occasional car-stereo listening test, he'd have no idea whether it was night or day."
Axl does the car stereo thing, too. Probably this is, again, mere a practical thing. A good stereo system allows you to drive around, get out the house and still remain in touch with the song. Only now, you listen to it outside the studio space. What you'll actually hear is a potentially finished song, and that's how the consumers would hear it from hereon out. The question is, does it hold up on its own?
Dre's general timekeeping is mentioned here as another trait he appears to share with Axl. Both have a habit of getting carried away by the workflow at times, to a point where they may even need to balance things out on the week after.
Dre on entourages:
"To help break the monotony of studio sessions, Dre has a floating band of merry men on hand - security guards, musicians, friends - all eager to crack up the Doctor. While he takes a break and eats dinner, the room fills with half a dozen folks who smoke pot, drink Hennessy Cognac, make fun of one another and generally behave like nightmare houseguests. Dre clearly loves the distraction, though he doesn't personally indulge in anything beyond a toothpick. When he folds up his plastic clamshell of chicken and says, 'Back to work,' the room clears."
Axl likes to have his people around, too, and is known to have relished the possibility to take off to a party simply to distract himself. Dre's example shows how money buys you an element of power - he simply suggests the room should clear and his jesters are gone, back into the jack-in-a-box.
Both Axl and Dre, therefore, seem to exercise what could be called absolute power over timetables. Their musicians are on call - friends can be summoned simply when the host cares for them to be around. Someone gets the call and goes for it, as someone always does.
When you're in charge of a production like this and have everybody cater your wishes, wouldn't you take your precious time to hone your dream project? During the writing of the TIME article, Dre was laying down tracks for his third solo album, Detox. A decade later, he still does.
Consistent output as a producer-only doesn't change the fact that, like Axl, Dre has had all the time and resources in the world to release Detox multiple times over. But maybe that's about being the king in the studio. Out there, you're subject to scrutiny. In here, no-one dares to question your opinion.
And something tells me that self-proclaimed King Dick will now hold court well after Detox has been released and, perhaps even, forgotten.
#1692 Re: Dust N' Bones & Cyborg Slunks » ADLER'S APPETITE In Pre-Production With CINDERELLA Drummer - Nov. 17, » 808 weeks ago
Fred Coury being involved just fills me with confidence......
I take it you didn't hear the earth-shattering remixes he did for that Hollywood Rose album some years back?
They really took the music world by storm, much like the promo campaign of Chinese Democracy.
#1693 Re: The Sunset Strip » GREGG ALLMAN's Daughter: 'If No One Hates You In This Industry, You're » 808 weeks ago
has no correlation to the traditional goth of 20-30 years ago.
That's because a lot of good music came out of that back in the day.
#1694 Re: Guns N' Roses » It's official: even I bought Chinese Democracy » 809 weeks ago
I don't own AFD.
#1695 Re: Guns N' Roses » DJ on new album, US tour in February » 809 weeks ago
other than old unreleased Chi Dem songs, songs need ... label approval, a game plan from the label that Ax approves....
Funny how this part hasn't gotten much attention.
#1696 Re: Guns N' Roses » Moscow Russia - October 29, 2010 (MosFilm Movie Studios) » 810 weeks ago
Tommy on bass, Duffy on rhythm.
Simply a preference on my part.
#1697 Re: Guns N' Roses » Moscow Russia - October 29, 2010 (MosFilm Movie Studios) » 810 weeks ago
Slash, and Duff. The dude's profilic enough to be reckoned with. Izzy can do guest spots and nobody seriously gives a damn who's behind the drum kit.
Axl / Slash / Duff / Ron / Tommy / Dizzy / Chris / Frank
Replace two guitar players and you can call them the Old Guns.
#1698 Guns N' Roses » The Reunion and the PIL Factor » 810 weeks ago
- apex-twin
- Replies: 1
Figured I'd try to set a fitting counterpart for the prospect of the Old Guns' reunion. Having listened to Public Image Limited's Metal Box (1979) as of late, I reckoned John Lydon'd make a good case there. Metal Box, by the way, is a whopping album.
PIL was formed some time after Lydon/Rotten recuperated from the acrimonious split with the Sex Pistols in the late 70's. Their initial two albums, self-titled and the aforementioned Metal Box, were conceived mainly by Lydon, guitarist Keith Levene and bassist Jah Wobble. Clash alumni Levene was since hailed (among others) as an inspiration by one Edge, so Bono over here should be curious to check their stuff out.
While PIL was aggressively stated to be a democracy by Lydon and co, Wobble was ejected from the group some time after the release of Metal Box. The official reason was that he was illegally using PIL backing tracks on his solo album. In return, Wobble said the studio he used was indeed booked for the band, but the others were too preoccupied with the rock n roll lifestyle to get anything done anyway.
Levene and Lydon persevered and published a nice (almost entirely bassless) avant-garde album The Flowers of Romance. Wobble's inimitable bass had been an integral part of the PIL sound so far, and, without a proper replacement, they now opted to have none of it.
All was not well, however. Recording of the next album dragged on as Levene was having drug problems and Lydon was trying out a movie career. During a trip to New York, Lydon caught up with a manager who persuaded him to take the stage with a bunch of session musicians, all of whom knew the PIL back catalog inside out. Lydon closed the famous show with the Pistols anthem, Anarchy in the UK, a song he'd vowed never again to perform during the early days of PIL.
And that was it. Levene released his mixes of the fourth album, dubbed Commercial Zone, independently in the States in 1983. Infuriated Lydon rerecorded everything and released the "official" album, This is What You Want, This is What You Get, a year later. A lukewarm reception made Lydon discard all of his collaborators and start afresh a few years later.
PIL is currently on a reunion tour. The lineup consists of people, who - aside Lydon - originally came aboard after all traces of Levene and Wobble had been removed in the mid-80's.
What Lydon did was an essential Chinese Democracy Mk I reunion. He hired the original session players instead of the founding members. One might argue that these people (who recorded the 1986 "Album") qualified for the name, as they did contribute to the discography at one point.
Lydon was able to pull it off since he'd successfully moved beyond Levene and Wobble with the 1986 hit single, Rise, co-written by Bill Laswell (later a frequent Buckethead collaborator), with guitar parts by Steve Vai. Levene and Lydon had written four albums together. Lydon ended up making another four with a rolling door of collaborators. None of them are generally regarded as good as the original PIL, but Lydon could probably care less.
As for the Guns, there are two jokes that've floated around CD ever since its inception. The first one was that the recording took forever. The second one was that it couldn't be Guns without Slash.
Mix mid-80's PIL with the clout of the Sex Pistols, and you get Axl's starting point with CD in the mid-90's. Move the release of Album from 1986 to around the millennium and you put the wait into perspective.
Now, imagine Lydon promoting Album with a group of touring members, as many of the people on the record have since departed. At one show, in walks Jah Wobble, the original bass player.
People are delighted, as Album was so far detached (in terms of both time and personnel) from the golden years to be fully accepted as a PIL record and this proves to be a refreshing jump back to a different era. There'd been no transitory period, no growing into Lydon's new sound through a succession of albums since the mid-80's, merely one, long wait.
Album has finally arrived. However, enough time has passed to escort the original lineup into rock music pantheon. Album had a window of a more fair release 5-10 years earlier. Now, the old band is coming back in style and that's what people are interested in when it comes to the name. Doing shows as the sole founding member is still profitable, but there's more money to be made with a full-blown reunion.
What should Lydon do? If a reunion is out of the question, he should show the current band is there for real, as a solid alternative for the alumni. If the band continues to record, publish and perform new music, people will have to come to terms with the fact that there's no reunion in the horizon.
He should, then, follow Album with a new, erm, album. Let's make it more complicated. Let's put a RRHOF induction ceremony in two years' time after Wobble's guest spot. Makeup with Levene can't be too far off, right?
Unless Lydon scraps the nomination personally, he needs to make a stand regarding the ceremony. Levene would probably be there anyway, and he'd have every right to be there. By copping out, Lydon would leave Levene to represent PIL. Not very good, as Levene hasn't been in the band for 16 years at that point.
The best bet for Lydon could be to perform in the ceremony with Levene, Wobble and a backing band. Do a golden oldie with Levene and Wobble and do the best new song off Album 2 with your current band. Accept the past, be gracious and firmly state you did the one-off simply to put the matter to bed.
Your new band and the best new song from Album 2 would get loads of publicity. Everybody would know your band is out there as an entity separate from the past. The public opinion would be that Levene and Wobble have given you their blessings.
You would be free again.
#1699 Re: Guns N' Roses » Moscow Russia - October 29, 2010 (MosFilm Movie Studios) » 810 weeks ago
The Mosfilm Studios are a legendary place. Lot of good Soviet films were shot there back in the day.
A nice payday and a cool experience, I bet.
#1700 Re: Guns N' Roses » Slash commenting on Duff with GNR » 810 weeks ago
The only thing I said about it was that... 'cause I know that they still ended up going on an hour late. And I was, like, 'Oooh.' That's the only part that would have left a bad taste in my mouth, supporting that.
Are you alluding Duff therefore supported going in late? Found that comment a bit superfluous, since he was the one who was there in the first place.
I think there's some deep-seeded stuff there. And it really can only come down to what was going on at the time when I finally said, 'I've gotta go.' And I think there was a certain sense of abandonment there. So it probably stems from that.
Over a decade of watching from the rafters as the media kept going on about how Axl ruined the band. Slash, be serious, you can't expect Ax to be that happy with you after all that, as the abandonment factor has been in the air since.
If everybody wanted to do it and it was very clear amongst us, which means we would have to clean up some personal stuff ... the biggest and most important part of it was... 'cause it seems like it would be a lot of fun to do, ... we'd have to do things way differently than we did in '91, '92, '93 and whatever... And I don't think that's changeable. That whole production would have to tighten up and be like a real working band, and I don't think that's salvageable.
When you cut off the rambling, Slash is actually pro-reunion, but has genuine issues with Axl's beggars and hangers-on. Given how mismanaged the band is, he does have a point there.
