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#201 Re: Guns N' Roses » Rock in Rio 2017 » 478 weeks ago

It's called getting away with murder.

RIR promoters have mentioned Guns in '11 was the hardest singular booking in the history of the festival, alluding to complex contract negotiations. This was after a 20-year business relationship between Axl and Roberto Medina, which included the UYI tour launch and the 2001 big comeback show. What's more, the 2011 show was decidedly lackluster, even if we graciously compare it to the average gig in 2010.

Roberto Medina, 2011 wrote:

Commenting on Guns N' Roses, who were 2 hours late getting on stage despite agreeing to pay a hefty fine for making fans wait, Medina said "Axl came very late and did not respect the public," citing three things in particular: "I found a lack of commitment, respect [for] the public, [and] the huge delay (they were more than two hours [late])."

All that's gone now. I bet Reading and Leeds are also keen to sign Guns again, despite talking Axl up as a pain in the arse after (again) poor showmanship.

Having said that, RIR '17 will likely see a well-oiled machine delivering the hits.

#202 Re: Guns N' Roses » New 4tus interview » 478 weeks ago

Wagszilla wrote:

Speaking of, one wonders if Axl intended to re-release Chinese Democracy without Buckethead and Robin, et. al. given Ashba's recording of the song.

I think he has said it was never intended to be released as a whole. An AFD/CD -hybrid of SCOM was on the Big Daddy soundtrack, while the new WTTJ was almost included on the Black Hawk Down OST.

Wagszilla wrote:

I also wonder why Robin popped up at that show in 2012.

Occam's razor says it's same reason as Brain was featured on that show. It was the last of the US club tour leg, and the first time since CD's release that the band played in Cali; a manageable distance for Robin and Brain to drive down to the venue from their homes and have some fun. Just an Axl gesture, thanks for all the work and no hard feelings.

#203 Re: Guns N' Roses » Curtain Call for the Old Guns '96 » 479 weeks ago

dalethirsty wrote:

sympathy for the devil is a weird cover for guns from just about every angle.

Blame Tom Zutaut. Interview with a Vampire was going to be a big studio hit and Zoot hit upon the idea of including Guns. You know, all eggs, one basket. They initially used the Stones version.

dalethirsty wrote:

what was axl thinking with that one?

The way Slash told it, Axl got a kick out of the movie and given Zoot had already ingrained him with the idea of doing the cover, he was already considering means to an end.

As for Paul on Sympathy...

Slash wrote:

"I will probably never forgive Axl for that. But we talked about it... We made a deal that if Paul ever plays on anything, then I should at least be told first." (Slash, Kerrang, 01/95)

Slash used some harsh words, there. Imagine getting back into the band, now as an employee, and dealing with that same person. Only in '96, it was worse in the sense that Axl would've been able to take similar liberties with Paul on subsequent material as the boss of it all. Slash had lost control over his own solos.

#204 Re: Guns N' Roses » Curtain Call for the Old Guns '96 » 479 weeks ago

dalethirsty wrote:

axl and slash's vengeance towards each other should have been channeled into the rawest, most aggressive guns album of all time.

It nearly did, funny enough. Everybody was describing the new material as angry, balls-out rock. Where they got cagey is how complete the songs were. They were, in all likelihood, instrumentals. They had an industrial vibe to them. It was like Appetite in the sense that they pooled a lot of pre-existing songs; think ISE. Paul was there to write Axl's share of the songs, because Axl's good at composing piano ballads - he's less than stellar in trying to come up with a rock song on his own.

The Phoenix show is strange. The crux of the story is Slash - he had little business to be there on a Monday night.

Slash wrote:

"The plan," announces Slash, "is for Duff (McKagan, bass) and Matt (Sorum, drums) to take off their band, Neurotic Outsiders, for a while [to a tour that would span from 09/05/96 to 09/28/96], leaving me and Axl to write stuff. If that spark gets rolling, then great. If it doesn't and we get into a fight, I'll just carry on playing gigs and jamming - with Snakepit or whatever. It's not complicated. At least, I don't see it that way." (Slash, Kerrang, 09/21/96)

The broad strokes of the plan had been carried out thus far. Slash gave that interview in early August, before Guns began rehearsing. There was one telling bit; "the small matter of one Paul Huge, Rose's choice to replace Gilby Clarke and a guitarist who Slash insists he cannot, and will not, work with."

Matt wrote:

"When Axl heard that me and Duff had gone out and gotten this multi-million-dollar record deal and we're going to go out on the road, he started getting a little nervous." (Matt, Toronto Sun, 09/04/96)

Then again, Axl might've seen shades of the Snakepit conundrum. It was a matter of completely cocked-up timing. Rehearsals started in August. Duff and Matt were dividing their time between Guns and NO. Then, they went on tour.

Matt wrote:

"Me and Duff are flying back to LA 'cause we're rehearsing with GN'R every night." (Matt, Rockline, 09/09/96)

I'd take that comment with a pinch of salt. Surely, I can imagine Matt and Duff stopping by in LA after that radio show; they had a few days before their next gig. Having said that, during the Arizona show, they'd been on the road for mere two weeks. They were looking at another minor break, followed by a European tour leg; another two weeks. Come October, Steve Jones would resume the Sex Pistols reunion tour. It was hardly a big deal in the grand scheme of things. They had a record coming out and were obliged to do a minor promotional tour. Any self-respecting musician would've said yes.

Yet, roughly a month after Guns rehearsals started, they were all here. Slash had been left to work with Axl (read: Paul), without the benefit of having Duff and Matt in the room.

Slash wrote:

"By September 1996, Slash was so miserable that he swore, 'I'm going to confront it. Either Paul goes, or...' (Q Magazine, 05/01)

Bad energy. An emergency band meeting could've been orchestrated in Arizona to deal with the issues. Slash could've went along with it, as it would've enabled him to play a show with Neurotic. Fun times. Meanwhile, Axl went out to Yoda, to pour out his frustrations, to sample photographs of his band members. Was Slash right, or was Paul a crucial part of Axl's plan? After the show, Axl could've met up with them and said, 'You know, guys... Paul stays.'

Matt wrote:

[The new rhythm guitarist, Paul Huge,] he's unknown. But I can't tell you his name because I don't know if he will tour with us. There will probably be several guitarists on this album, a lot of guests. (Matt, 09/23/96)

A week after the Arizona show, Matt was downplaying the overall presence of Paul. There'd be guests; Brian May's name was tossed around at some point. Axl's subsequent comments corroborated with the general intent to keep Paul in the sidelines.

Axl wrote:

"Now whether or not Paul was going to be officially on the album or on the tour that really wasn't an actual consideration at the time. It was in the air as a possibility." (Axl, press release, 08/14/02)

If it was all on Paul, it's a bit of a stretch. Everybody agreed Paul was to a have a complimenting, behind-the-scenes role to play.

What exactly led to Slash quitting is unknown. He's mentioned the contract negotiations as a factor, as well. Axl was keeping him on a short leash. But it's certainly possible that this Arizona appearance was a tipping point. When the NO tour wrapped, Slash was already moving on. Paul was still there, so that may have been a factor.

Yet Slash had already bashed Paul in the press due to his inclusion to Sympathy. Imagine how Paul would've felt like. His buddy asks him to work with Guns. The lead guitarist, due to communication breakdown with the said friend, badmouths Paul in worldwide media. The modest Paul gets his fifteen minutes of shame for simply doing a favour. Had Slash said, 'Screw Axl's way of recruiting players without my consent', his argument would've been valid and understandable. "Hating" Paul is just barking at the wrong bush.

Then, Axl and Slash had a meeting of minds - on all things aside Paul. Slash insisted Paul was baggage, and yet, come rehearsals in August, he flipped and started saying how good the material was. Ditto Duff, who singled Paul out years after leaving the band. "Dude can't play" is a bit harsh. More likely, Paul was a scapegoat, a convenient opportunity to take potshots at Axl. Had they sat down with Paul and explained to him that this isn't working out, Paul would've likely relocated to Axl's kitchen with a DAT recorder. They really did try to work with him and it's a bit hard to believe Paul would've been in a room with them, without Axl, all smug, as Slash has suggested.

If he had any attitude, it was quite possibly because Slash, a person he'd never had much traffic with prior, had singled him out as a bad person in the press. The best solution would've been to separate them and to get auditions going for a real rhythm player. Slash had to have been extremely demoralized by the August/September rehearsals to quit the band by the time the NO tour wrapped. He tried out the Axl's approach and left the minute they seemingly had an opening to get to work in earnest.

Had Axl caved in and taken Paul out of the room, things might've gone down differently. But the Arizona trip might've been what sealed the deal for Slash.

#205 Re: Guns N' Roses » Curtain Call for the Old Guns '96 » 479 weeks ago

johndivney wrote:

As an aside/alt history/speculation: if Slash doesn't do Snakepit, does Axl still find cause to fuel the split? If Slash continues to appease Axl where would it have led?

Well, we can only guess, but.

I've always felt that disbanding the partnership was a retaliation to Snakepit. Remove that from the equation and keep those three-four tracks in the Guns pool and maybe, the partnership would've kept up.

Paul would've, in all likelihood, still gotten involved. With Dizzy, he was Axl's ghost writer, anyway. As for the album...

"I originally wanted to make a traditional record or try to get back to an "Appetite [For Destruction]" thing or something, because that would have been a lot easier for me to do. I was involved in a lot of lawsuits for Guns N' Roses and in my own personal life, so I didn't have a lot of time to try and develop a new style or re-invent myself, so I was hoping to write a traditional thing, but I was not really allowed to do that." (Axl, MTV interview, 11/08/99)

"So, I opted for what I thought would or should've made the band and especially Slash very happy. Basically I was interested in making a Slash record with some contributions from everybody else." (Axl, press release, 08/14/02)

"Axl treated the situation as if he and I were the two most important factors in the whole thing. He tried to convince me it was all good, that it was something he and I were doing as partners. He was trying to draw me into his world, to show me his version of things in his way, which is a very nice way, but I just didn't go for it." (Slash, Autobiography)

The resulting album could've had some Snakepit songs, a song reminiscent to Fall to Pieces and some (versions of) CD songs. A hard-rock album, with 12 songs or more. Somewhat a stopgap release, with Slash's guitar wailing over a heavily modified soundscape. Do note that it's quite possible the CD saga could've unfolded anyway, as Slash might've just as well packed up after that album.

#206 Re: Guns N' Roses » Chinese Democracy in 1988 » 479 weeks ago

Prostitute '06
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zLWIYDa2-gc

Since '02, Axl's alternated between two distinct intros to NR; one being Prostitute and the other one being this.

Get this. Axl thinks NR is a big deal to him as a composer. It's a very old song of his and after it got the Guns treatment, it became quite a hit. Bearing that in mind, Axl must've ranked his piano work on Prostitute highly to play it, incognito, before his crown jewel. Whatever the other bit is, I doubt it's just something he threw together on a whim.

#207 Re: Guns N' Roses » Chinese Democracy in 1988 » 480 weeks ago

Wagszilla wrote:

It's all very strange.

Do tell!

Wagszilla wrote:

You could argue he was using his mania to fuel himself out of the doldrums. You could also argue he was posturing out of some anti-Slash rage.

Yup. I distinctly recall a story told in the '06 Trunk interview. It was 1991, the pre-release UYI tour leg. "Someone" was giving him a hard time about completing the albums. He fell down. The audience waited. He heard a WASP track. The record company person had "gotten Axl right where I want him! What's this... He's fired up! He's going to do the show....!" Axl went out and ranted about Tom Zutaut, the A&R man who signed them and had facilitated all their releases.

Axl was rising to the top of the world and he was seriously biting the hand that feeds. The record company peeps were a load of money-hungry tools to think they could pump out further releases out of him every three years. Five to six, maybe.

Wagszilla wrote:

Yet in 2000, 2001, 2002, and 2007 he was still talking about a trilogy of albums and 30-50 songs were regularly mentioned. This isn't the thinking of someone without ideas. Lack of follow through or quality, maybe, but not short of ideas.

Oh, he's had his share of ideas. Manic phases do that. One of them was the studio space. Jams with Slash had been held at The Complex. Axl wanted a fresh start with the Robin band - he moved the operation to Rumbo, the Appetite studio. By the time they hired Tommy, Axl realized the band needed to recreate Appetite, note-to-note, to road-test his studio gear and to align the lineup with that old magic.

Soon after, Sean Beavan came in. They started hashing out songs. In a year, they made two albums. One was much of CD, Robin-based, the other one more Dizzy/Pitman. That is to say, one was more traditional guitar-based album, while the other had a more EDM tone. By the time those two were done, Robin and Josh Freese quit due to a general sense of 'Now What?' within the band. They were out of the loop, as Axl was doing vocals.

Wagszilla wrote:

As a counterpoint, he had long been disabused of the Industrial GN'R angle yet in 2012-2013 they're still working over Oh My God and Silkworms? Strange.

One thing about those two songs; they're already in the wild. What Axl seems to dislike is showcasing unreleased material. He needed 3-5 songs to sell the CD tours to promoters. The '02 Boston show ad used studio soundbytes of CD, Maddy and The Blues. The '06 leaks are harder to explain, other than by saying Fernando did it. Impossible to prove, but get this - Axl namedrops TWAT and Better (1st mention) in a RS article, while preluding his comeback trail.

What came with them was IRS, first heard in 2003 at Trunk radio. Baseball player Mike Piazza gave him the disc, they played one track (out of three), once. They dutifully gave back to Guns. Luckily, they had an inline; both Trunk and Piazza were backstage at the '02 MSG show, arguably their finest show with Bucket. Ever wondered if Axl heard himself in the radio?

What I'm suggesting is that there was no master plan behind the leaks with Axl involved. But there could've been one without him. Leaving him out of the plan would free him of any legal consequences with the record company, despite the fact that he would blow a lid down the road. Then again, that would be the norm. Axl and leakers agree on one thing; Guns songs with vocals are currency.

The opportune songs leaked at the eve of the '06 tour, to a warm response. Genuinely, people got a kick out of Better. The tour got hot, and the '02 catastrophe was being washed away by the new music. The leaks were a blessing; they rejuvenated interest in the band and the album. Had Axl finished bloody album, turned it in, taken a bit of a holiday and then embarked on a tour, CD release in the pipeline, he would've gotten away with it.

The CD saga could've been considered an unlikely success, had Axl met them halfway. Late as usual.

Wagszilla wrote:

If gossip is to be believed, the vault material is garbage, but who really knows.

Silk Worms, anyone? I bet the new songs in RIR3 were an even split from the two albums, with Riad and SW being from the EDM-tinged pile.

Wagszilla wrote:

the way Chinese Democracy was recorded is virtually no different from the way Appetite For Destruction was recorded. All members came and went as they pleased, only came into the studio when they felt like it,

Josh Freese wrote:

"The first year ('98) I was there five nights a week, I'd drive from Long Beach up to the Valley. 9-10 at night and worked until 4, 5, 6 in the morning... I was playing records and doing sessions during the day, and then going there at night to do his thing." (Josh Freese, PodAMatic, 04/13)

Dave Dominguez wrote:

"Every few months, say sources, somebody, if not everybody, would get fired - at least management could step in and resolve the issue.

'[Axl]'d be 'on' for a couple of weeks and then 'off' for a couple weeks', recalls Dave Dominguez, an engineer who started the sessions with Rose in the late nineties.  'He called in pretty much every day, though. He'd ask who was there, what they were doing.

He'd say to tell them that,
'I'm coming in, I'll be there in a while.'
I'd tell the band, 'Axl called and said he's coming in.'

[Oftentimes,] he'd never show up... [but when he did, Axl] would show up at 2AM, [or] 2.30AM, and no one would be around, he'd get upset.

'Where are they?'
'I don't know, they all left.'

Then he'd call the next day.
'Who's there?'
'Just Josh.'
'OK, have everybody leave. Have them break everything down. We're done.'

...It took two days to break the room down because he fired everybody.'" (What's On Dubai, 12/10)

Wagszilla wrote:

I also know of many cases of highly successful people who work remotely yet are still very successful. The stories of runners trafficking discs across the city don't move me beyond the general excess that comes with positions of power. A lot of this stuff is a coach gambling on 4th down. If he gets it, he's a genius. If he fails, he's a fool. Same principle.

Had the album come out in '06, Axl could've been redeemed and his method proven sound. Imagine that. Brain pretty much admitted that his respect for Axl as a working musician went up by chance. Brain had missed an early kick drum on a Roy Thomas Baker -produced track. RTB failed to notice. Brain did. They shipped out the disc. Axl complimented the take, but he thought he heard Brain miss a kick drum.

There was always a method to his madness, yes. But he was too far gone to share it with his band as such. They'd record stuff, and it go way down the assembly line. Later on, they'd hear mixes, likely much-wrangled. They'd be all, 'Oh, that's exotic'. Sure enough, it'd be all their stuff through the Axl filter. If kept in check, Axl can perform musical wizardry. Vastly listened and with a highly discernible pair of ears, Axl can by now prolly hear how songs were recorded.

What he gravely needed was a proper floor manager. Someone who could provide the band some overall insight, keep them motivated and move the recording along. They ended up having rented guitars in the corner, bills dutifully paid. Axl didn't care about the money, neither did Uni. Nor anyone else. Everybody was getting paid, so everybody went on with the programme as long as it suited them. 

Wagszilla wrote:

I'm quite interested in why the record didn't come out in 2002 and pretty much all of 2004.

You and me, both. Merck alluded the RTB/Tom Zutaut produced tracks were gradually re-done, starting after the '02 tour.  They were still on Universal dime, so they could erase those two and their 'bad vibes', should that please the boss. But they were the same damn songs that make up CD.

Wagszilla wrote:

I think something happened between February and June 2007 related to the record.

Cold feet. It was like '02 all over again. Axl's under the gun to deliver an album before a tour. He's feeling the heat.

Wagszilla wrote:

The cancelling of their South Africa gig always seemed questionable but Axl showing up to the Mexico show several hours late, fatter, and extremely drunk is the bigger tell.

Axl's a sensitive fella, but that Mexico show seems alright.

Wagszilla wrote:

If second hand stories are to be believed, this angered one Robin Finck and the seams had already started to become undone.

Robin left in '99 as his contract ended, his work done. He was angered by the non-release and the muddy outlook of the situation. Robin was the one who personally apologized the fans for the early cancellations on that tour. Again, Robin was already burned by the '06 non-release. And the ones before it. He posted a gothic image of angelic voice in a haunted house after the '02 cancellations. The message was clear; Axl refused to catch a break.

johndivney wrote:

Yea. I mean, what the hell?! These people are really fuckin weird/nuts. Tho what does that say about us..?? neutral

At least we can carry on conversations by using highly unusual semantics. 16

#208 Re: Guns N' Roses » Chinese Democracy in 1988 » 480 weeks ago

The way Axl tells the story is that he's always tried to protect the band. Money is of little concern to him, he pays people (through litigations or otherwise) to leave him alone. While the way he handled the partnership was an insult to S&D, he sincerely thought he was helping out the band.

A lot of the ire between them could've prolly been resolved by getting them in a room with Duff as the referee. Axl could've said how he feared the band would fall apart like his personal life, and that he feels the pressure of moving on from UYI without Izzy. Slash could've said he's still motivated to be in the band and wanted to build on their mutual foundation, just that touring was a way for him to keep busy and releasing his "rejected" Guns jams was simply means to get the songs out anyway. The entire feud was, in my eyes, muchly about them being in their separate worlds, lacking direct communication and second-guessing what went on in the other person's head.

As for CD... Axl was still in fine form on the 2007 tour in Japan. Next we saw him was 1,5 years later, again in the Far East. Talk about a meltdown. The scariest notion turned out to be that during the Ashba cycle (09-14), the first year was the best for Axl, both in terms of voice and fitness. Much was made of his boozing on tour - this was a far cry from the off-the-handle  '02 Predator, that hit a gay gym by accident in one city. Apparently, he completed his workout, anyway.

CD deflated Axl. True to his nature, he missed every possible release date and blew countless opportunities. And like you said, it was still rushed; the master was completed in September/October '08, the booklet was a shambles. The assets were handled extremely poorly; again, poor project management. Team Brazil would've had the influence to fix those things a long while before the release - they didn't. Everybody was on Axl time. This meant pursuing whatever he wanted, instead of leading him through a number of choices (like cover art) he had to pin down before they would be turned over to Uni.

I bet Azoff came in, took one look at the project and thought to himself, 'Ehh...' It would've still been a mess. The BestBuy exclusive is another thing, a nigh-impossible way to clear the Uni debt. Azoff knew CD would never sell enough with consumers, so he sold the lock, stock and barrel to a corporation. Doing a double album under those circumstances would've meant a double amount of coasters for BestBuy. Axl's absence from the release might've been because he knew he was doing a deal with the Devil to get the album out. It's a hole he dug for himself, sure, but it still hurt.

After hurling things at Slash and Uni, Axl waited for the Van Halen supertour. Never happened. Things just kept going wrong with Azoff, to the point in which Guns were 'blacklisted' from Ticketmaster venues, thus crippling proper US tour. A year or two later, Guns toured US at those very venues, partially to pay off Azoff. It's easy to believe Axl was bummed, bummed, bummed. Look at Rock in Rio 2011, if post-CD was bad, post-2010 tour was worse.

The above is from one of the very last 2010 shows. Axl looks and sounds pretty damn good for someone pushing 49. He's definitely feeling the song, as well. He still had enough vitriol to carry him through one solid year of touring behind the album. To me, RIR '11 was the turning point - that's where we lost him for nearly five years.

#209 Re: Guns N' Roses » Chinese Democracy in 1988 » 480 weeks ago

Wagszilla wrote:

If you don't give him the benefit of the doubt you could speculate he was totally out of ideas and/or in way over his head.

A little bit of both, I guess. Axl bonded with Duff again after the pancreas incident, but he was still too much in his own world to level with Slash about anything. Some Snakepit songs caught his ear, but then, Slash turned around, released them all and about to go on tour. Axl saw betrayal. Any chance of Gilby coming back for the SFTD sessions was possibly nixed by the Axl/Slash tension. Axl was already up to his neck in litigations, he apparently feared Guns would fall into the same pit. That's why he did the whole disbanding the partnership thing, to assume control over the band's future assets; to prevent any more Snakepits or "We want Gilby instead of Paul Huge".

What consistently left a lot to be desired were Axl's project management skills. By the looks of it, he barely had any. Any lineup from '96 onwards was supposed to go into the studio at night and record jams, so that Axl could listen to the CD-R's in his mansion. Different people have testified that he rarely showed up to work alongside the band. That was a grave error - things would've no doubt gotten done more smoothly had he met them all in a room on a weekly basis, to go through their most recent efforts. Tell them (in broad strokes) what he had in mind in regards to touring, et al. Keep them in the loop as far as their own jobs are concerned, the very least.

But he failed to give them much direction and, aside Sean Beavan, was reluctant to appoint much anyone as his second. Beavan is no doubt one of the unsung heroes of the whole saga. He dutifully chopped those late-night jams into tiny pieces and constructed semicoherent songs out of them. After that, bells and whistles. There were more songs written in the Bucket -era, but even these may have been blended into sketches and ideas that were already there - and had been ever since Dizzy, Paul and friends started jamming as Guns in '94-95. Those songs were actually for the '96 band, Axl's reserve material pining for Slash solos.

Fear can be a mighty adversary and Axl fell victim to his own.

#210 Re: Guns N' Roses » Chinese Democracy in 1988 » 480 weeks ago

Makes sense in a way. Seems as if Josh Freese came up with a Smells Like Teen Spirit knock-off and they pasted an old Slash riff in as an intro.

It's something else to consider all that Slash obsession while they knowingly used his old stuff to spruce up CD yikes

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