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#301 Re: The Garden » Current Events Thread » 229 weeks ago
mitchejw wrote:I’ve been trying hard to come up with a good metaphor or example for how Nixon should be viewed when it comes to Vietnam…
I’ve really struggled to come up with one but here’s my best shot.
It’s like when you bluff at a pot once, twice, three times and fold.
If that’s what you want to give him credit for then by all means.
Nixon should've spent his entire life kissing LBJ's ass for ascending to the presidency.
Nixon claimed to have a "secret plan" to get us out of Vietnam...it would of course be revealed if he wins the election.
Around this same time, LBJ found out (through the CIA?) that Nixon and his team were secretly negotiating with the Vietnamese.
This was treason...he should've been arrested...or at least investigated.
LBJ balked due to worrying about it causing a constitutional crisis and ripping the country apart.
Love or hate Nixon, that decision alters everything.
Maybe it's just a bias toward what is generally considered modern history but I feel like this was the birth of the worst kind of politics.
I read a book called the tragedy of Richard Nixon a few years back and there were some endearing things about him. I'm sure it's pretty much the same as any other book about him. He was totally dedicated to his wife. He seemed to be a flawed man like any of us. He seemed to be brilliant in some areas and had blind spots in others.
It just seems like the true beginning of modern day sleaze politics. I remember reading that the Republicans sort of treated the impeachment of Nixon as a favor that should be owed back to them as the years passed by. When they tried to impeach Clinton in the 90s, many of those same people were still around and felt betrayed when the favor wasn't returned. I don't know how many of those people are still around today. But I do believe one of the reasons Republicans wouldn't even consider impeachment of Trump was because of how Democrats handled the impeachment in the 90s. I believe Trump took the sleaze politics of Nixon and ramped it up to the next level.
Maybe I made it up but I want to believe there was a time when trans people weren't the focal point of a political party. Most of the shit that ends up on an agenda or as a talking point is shit I couldn't care less about.
#302 Re: The Garden » Current Events Thread » 229 weeks ago
I’ve been trying hard to come up with a good metaphor or example for how Nixon should be viewed when it comes to Vietnam…
I’ve really struggled to come up with one but here’s my best shot.
It’s like when you bluff at a pot once, twice, three times and fold.
If that’s what you want to give him credit for then by all means.
#303 Re: The Garden » Current Events Thread » 229 weeks ago
You keep moving the goalpost. You said he didn't end the war. I showed you actual video of him announcing an end to Vietnam. Suddenly that doesn't count because before that he was.... Fighting the war? When you're negotiating a peace deal it kind of follows logic that the war will continue until an agreement is reached.
How is moving the goal post? You can’t skip everything that happened in between.
JFK is like William Henry Harrison…he didn’t do much of anything. Until 1963 only a few hundred troops had died in Vietnam unless the statistics I’m looking at are not accurate.
Johnson (a democrat let me remind you) escalated it. Leave it to a Texan.
I still think Reagan is a bunch of extremely conflicting policies….from small government to massive government spending and massive changes to the tax code helping the people at the top. Massive deficit spending but for some reason republicans were all about it then.
#304 Re: The Garden » Current Events Thread » 229 weeks ago
You’re leaving out a lot of details here. Most notably, he agreed to a deal he could’ve gotten on day 1. 10s of thousands more died on both sides while he bombed the shit out of Vietnam. Only when he was trying to save face during the watergate scandal did he abruptly give up on the ‘peace with honor’ strategy.
#305 Re: The Garden » Current Events Thread » 229 weeks ago
“Around 700 US military personnel were in South Vietnam when he [JFK] was inaugurated; on his death there were roughly 16,000.”
If we want, we can blame Eisenhower, but he escalated intervention in Vietnam. This was then left to Johnson and then Nixon. There’s no reason to argue about this, Mitch.
The part that’s debatable is that Nixon ended it.
#306 Re: The Garden » Current Events Thread » 229 weeks ago
Nixon a ‘peace with honor’ - he somehow simultaneously ended the Vietnam war and dropped more bombs there than you could count.
#307 Re: The Garden » Current Events Thread » 229 weeks ago
Dude, he ended JFK’s war and there’s no way to dispute that. Just like Obama “escalated” Iraq and Afghanistan when he promised to end it. It’s pretty complicated inheriting someone else’s war.
JFK wasn’t even president for 2 years…JFKs war?!
#308 Re: The Garden » Current Events Thread » 229 weeks ago
mitchejw wrote:James wrote:The country has been overdue for a maverick since 2008. It's unfortunate that the era was wasted on Obama...and then Trump.
Only another Teddy Roosevelt is capable of saving us.
What a strange take. When was the last good president then? Bc W was just a continuation of daddy and daddy was just more Reagan.
Surely you didn’t like Carter because you don’t like Biden.
You’ve never said anything positive about the Clintons.
Nixon was a real POS.
Nixon started the EPA, ended the Vietnam war, expanded civil rights protections for women and Native Americans, nearly passed universal healthcare, which was sabotaged by that piece of shit Ted Kennedy, and wanted to subsidize the wages of the working poor -- a form of ubi. Nixon was a far better President than JFK, who literally stole the presidency from him.
You need to check your history on ending Vietnam.
Amusing that you think dropping more bombs than anyone and escalating war is a means to ending it.
Most historians point to the end of Vietnam as being 1975. Nixon was long gone by then.
#309 Re: The Garden » Current Events Thread » 229 weeks ago
Policy wise Bush senior was good, Clinton was pretty damn good. Trump was excellent.
Obama was bad, Carter was worse, Biden is an absolute dumpster fire
Trump left this country as it was burning to the ground and felt the need to make it worse on Jan. 6th.
Trump was an abysmal failure. All smoke and mirrors.
#310 Re: The Garden » Current Events Thread » 229 weeks ago
Sure…tout the outsider all you want…but Trump was nothing more than a government sponsored infomercial.
