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BLS-Pride
 Rep: 211 

Re: Suicide Squad/Justice League Films

BLS-Pride wrote:
RaZor wrote:
BLS-Pride wrote:

Ehhh. I didn't love it. I didn't hate it. I kinda liked it.

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They should have picked The Dark Knight returns or Death of Superman comics. Combining the two didn't work. They should have had the government after Batman and using superman to do it or they should have committed to a better Doomsday story with Batman and WW trying to help save Superman and the city. Too much in the movie. How many times can you show the Waynes getting murdered? One too many dreams. Batman obviously killed people in real life, not just his dreams. Which is a wtf. It's a shame. The actors all did top notch work. The pieces were there. Lex was just a tad bit over the top for my liking. Overall I enjoyed it better than Avengers 2 or Iron Man 2 or 3.

The Batman scenes were classic though. Especially when he was saving a certain "witch". Ben killed it as Bruce.

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I actually think that combining dark knight returns and the doomsday story worked. I mean let's face it, there's nothing new really to the death of superman other than monster goes on rampage, superman dies defeating him.  I also, surprisingly, like Luther.  I went in annoyed that we were getting a fifth superman firm with Luther as villain, but I ended up enjoying it, because it's a version of Luther we don't see a lot anymore, the golden age "mad scientist" Luther.  I didn't think the madness was to much because I suspect it's a setup to the Justice league movie...  he knows Darkseid is coming, I suspect it's part of what's driving him mad.  The dream sequence was kind of a wtf moment, totally out of place.  But I suspect we're going to see the other side of that sequence in the Justice League movie. I suspect that "dream" was a vision of either the future, or a parallel reality, brought on by the speed force because of the flash traveling back in time.  If I'm right, and that's the seed to a time travel/multiverse story, than I think we're in story for one epic Justice League flick, and a movie that might make SvB better in retrospect.

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I'm not sure. Feel like they could have dug deeper and told a better story concentrating on one of those story lines. They did do a good job of subtly putting out there that Darkseid will be the big bad in JL.

That high of a rating Axlin? Even with the major flaws to Batman's characrer? I would give it a 2.5/4.

Axlin16
 Rep: 768 

Re: Suicide Squad/Justice League Films

Axlin16 wrote:

I'm not on that whole kick of flaws to Batman's character bs. I LOVED Keaton's Batman and up until Affleck, felt it was that definitive performance (see what I said there? More on that later).

Remember something, regardless of the Burtonverse, or Snyderverse, BvS was Frank Miller's Batman in alot of ways. Affleck/Goyer/Terio (?) were depicting The Dark Knight Returns version of Batman.


This is an older, beat down, nihilistic, hopeless Batman, lost in a dystopian world. Snyder practically spelled out that Batman & Superman's United States is the one Donald Trump is describing. Government is corrupt, wants to control Superman and the only reason Batman gets a pass is because Gotham and i'm assuming Commissioner Gordon runs interference protecting him. Holly Hunter was pretty much owned by Lex Luthor who depicted the classic Rockefeller (I inherited the world -- I AM GOD -- YOU WILL WORSHIP ME!!). Batman was Trying to find his way again. In response, Miller's Batman was an angry, extremely brooding, depressing and BRUTAL Batman who had kind of lost his rules, gave up on his parents dreams, and had adapted to the world that he had been given.

Affleck's Batman in BvS (basically Batman Begins Part 5), reminds me of Donald Pleasence's Loomis of Halloween 5. By that point, the character was so fucking fried from chasing Myers and watching horrible shit, he had slipped off the rocker himself and had become just as fucking crazy as Michael Myers himself. Pleasence was bad ass in that role at that point, but BOY was it out of character. Affleck is no different. He's playing Wayne/Batman as an older, hopeless version of Bale's Batman, if Bale had just started doing what it takes.

He was also haunted by his in-action to stop his parents, specifically mother's murder. And was willing with

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Martha Kent

to do whatever it took to save

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her life


To quote Batman Begins... "I'm not going to kill you.... but I don't have to save you"

Every scene that Affleck's Batman goes full Rambo/Martin Riggs on the baddies with wreckless abandon, he never outwardly does anything to kill them. They just happen to get killed from the circumstances ala Burton's Batman.

I have always been A-OKAY with this. I like my Batman a bit more a fucking badass and willing to say fuck it and do what it takes and not be a pussy about it. I'm not really into the limp-wristed Gotham "you can't kill murder, and you can't murder an idea" philosophical Batman of the current TV series.

My original choice back in the day of a TDK-Returns Batman was always an older, buff Mel Gibson. Full Mad Max in a fucking Batman mask baby. Affleck found some way to merge that with Bale's Batman and I fucking love him for it. He fucking nailed it.


I loved the depiction of Batman. And that was the weird, inconsistent thing about this film. It was more of a Zack Snyder Batman film, than it was Man of Steel 2. Superman just happened to be there. Affleck was certainly the performance and focal point of the film.

RaZor
 Rep: 32 

Re: Suicide Squad/Justice League Films

RaZor wrote:

@BLS - yeah, the movie wasn't perfect. The things that I didn't care for were

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it was a little boring at first (but honestly, IMO, so were the Nolan Batman movies at times, so if it wasn't a problem for those movies, we shouldn't hold that against this one IMO) And they didn't do a god job of explaining that dream sequence to the general audience, people were walking out of the theater like WTF.

@Axlin - interesting analysis dude. So do you think this is a soft reboot of the Nolanverse. Maybe an alternate reality where the events of those films happened with some minor details changing here and there?

Re: Suicide Squad/Justice League Films

Lomax wrote:
RaZor wrote:

@BLS - yeah, the movie wasn't perfect. The things that I didn't care for were

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it was a little boring at first (but honestly, IMO, so were the Nolan Batman movies at times, so if it wasn't a problem for those movies, we shouldn't hold that against this one IMO) And they didn't do a god job of explaining that dream sequence to the general audience, people were walking out of the theater like WTF.

@Axlin - interesting analysis dude. So do you think this is a soft reboot of the Nolanverse. Maybe an alternate reality where the events of those films happened with some minor details changing here and there?

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Haha. Yeah. I had read about it before I went in so know the dream sequence was coming and I still found it shocking. He's walkign around with a pistol shooting guys through the head for Christ sake. I couldn't believe that. I live beside a cinema..... So fuck it.... I think I'll go back for another look tonight.

Re: Suicide Squad/Justice League Films

Lomax wrote:
Axlin16 wrote:

I
To quote Batman Begins... "I'm not going to kill you.... but I don't have to save you"

Every scene that Affleck's Batman goes full Rambo/Martin Riggs on the baddies with wreckless abandon, he never outwardly does anything to kill them. They just happen to get killed from the circumstances ala Burton's Batman.


Firstly I'm okay with it. I think the idea of a Superhero with no super powers who doesn't kill people is just fucking dumb.
I've been waiting for Batman to start killing people since I was about 3 years old.
But you are totally fucking wrong about him killing by circumstance.

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He smashes a guys head through the floor at one point.
He stabs a guy in the heart.... Stabs a guy in the heart.... AFTER he's decided Superman is a friend.
He drives his car into a a car full of people.
He machine guns a dude in his bat mobile.

You can't tell me that those are not outward purposeful attempts to kill people.
For fuck sake

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he's about to kill superman till the very last second


I should also point out. I'm one of the few ho thought that the film was absolutely brilliant. I loved every last second of it and I cannot wait for more.
My favorite Marvel film was Ray Stevensons Punisher Warzone. That was a great movie. If you haven't seen it you should.

I loved Iron Man 1 and liked number 3. I thought the avengers was okay but had to turn it off on the re-watch because it got too boring once you knew the jokes and plot. All the other Marvel films are utter shite.

X-men 1 & 2 and Days of Future Past and Deadpool are also absolute masterpieces.
The rest of the X-men movies are shite.
With the exception of Wolverine which is great up until the end at which point its shite.

Oh and I liked watchmen but prefer Batman v Superman.

I think I liked the more Doom and Gloom superhero stuff and killing. They have to kill. Superheros who don't kill just annoy me.
Having said that though, Spawn was also shite.


Oh Judeg Dredd is a comic too isn't it?
That Dredd movie, the Karl Urban one, that was excellent.

monkeychow
 Rep: 649 

Re: Suicide Squad/Justice League Films

monkeychow wrote:

Regarding Batman's fighting - to me it relates to the major themes and the ending:

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I see it as part of the subtext. Over 20 years Batman has been driven too far - and he's degenerated into killing and branding people. Meanwhile the film has a lot of discussion of superman as a Messiah figure. He ends up dying for the world. This effects a change in Bats - he goes from not believing  in the good of man anymore to forming the justice league. He chooses to brand the wall not luthor at the end. Right before superman rises from the dead like the Messiah. In my opinion they are playing with religious symbolism and the brutal batman is a part of that

Axlin16
 Rep: 768 

Re: Suicide Squad/Justice League Films

Axlin16 wrote:
RaZor wrote:

@BLS - yeah, the movie wasn't perfect. The things that I didn't care for were

Hidden Text:

it was a little boring at first (but honestly, IMO, so were the Nolan Batman movies at times, so if it wasn't a problem for those movies, we shouldn't hold that against this one IMO) And they didn't do a god job of explaining that dream sequence to the general audience, people were walking out of the theater like WTF.

@Axlin - interesting analysis dude. So do you think this is a soft reboot of the Nolanverse. Maybe an alternate reality where the events of those films happened with some minor details changing here and there?


I don't think the Nolanverse ever left us. Chris Nolan was listed as a Producer on "Man of Steel" and an Executive Producer on "BvS", and he certainly hasn't left the franchise. He might not have a huge hand in the franchise anymore, unlike Burton's 'ceremonial' Producer-credit on "Batman Forever" of which he had nothing to do with, Nolan still seems to have some involvement, or at least WB's producers and Snyder himself have been directed to follow Nolan's template. The biggest loss has been Jonah Nolan and his fantastic writing.

I respect that WB & DC have stood their ground in attempting to produce an much darker, and more adult superhero movie. Something Marvel & Disney have completely thrown at the damn door. Their movies (i've begun to HATE THEM) have just went balls deep in reviving campy superhero movies. They used to be smart, but now they're all basically comedies.

WB/DC have attempted to keep their world grounded in Nolan's template. Even Snyder's "Man of Steel" felt like a Chris Nolan film, without Nolan's sense of cinematography. Man of Steel was not close to the visuals of TDK Trilogy.

But to me, they've definitely kept it in that world. The involvement of Superman's world in the past two films was basically as sense of "had the over-the-top villians of DC appeared in Nolan's world, how would it had happened?" Well, Snyder's world is pretty much it.

Man of Steel and Batman vs. Superman both just felt like extensions of the same storyline started with Nolan, just with different writers and director. It really feels like the same franchise. All of it being the DC Cinematic Universe.

Axlin16
 Rep: 768 

Re: Suicide Squad/Justice League Films

Axlin16 wrote:
Lomax wrote:
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He machine guns a dude in his bat mobile.

he's about to kill superman till the very last second

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In fairness it was never purposely said what he was using with that machine gun. In the game "Batman: Arkham Knight" the Batmobile has a machine gun that specifically states that it uses special rounds, similar to rubber bullets. However the rounds magically can take down tanks and nightmare Scarecrow as well. But it is a video game.

I didn't find the machine gun thing a big deal, because I assumed it was Batman. He was using some non-lethal rounds.


As for Superman... Batman swore to never kill a PERSON. Technically Superman is an alien lifeform. As far as Batman knew he was saving the world from a rogue, terroristic, alien-invader, because Luthor was playing the two of them against each other.

The one thing I thought was bizarre was that Luthor had the ability to find out Clark Kent was Superman. But doesn't have the same ability to find out Bruce Wayne is Batman.

Re: Suicide Squad/Justice League Films

AtariLegend wrote:

Just my thoughts since I just seen this.

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Negatives:

The dream sequence is complete nonsense and unnecessary. Yes, it's a little bit interesting see-ing Batman get in head shots and gun down every bad guy in sight and the scene where Superman unmasks him. It was all a dream though and lasted several minutes, why include this?

The scene where Clarke talks to Kevin Costner in his head? Again, unnecessary.

Who the fuck thought they needed to include yet another flashback/Batman origin story. We've seen it multiple times in the past few decades. Everyone knows it. It's silly just to remind the audience that Bruce's mother's name is Martha.

The Man of Steel soundtrack being played constantly at different points throughout this film. It's like they really could not afford Han Zimmer to record new material, so they just re-used it all. It also tends to happen at these supposed "sentimental moments".

Doomsday is wasted in this and it's completely forced. He doesn't really do anything either.

The CGI. I understand that this probably started off as Man of Steel II, but it just feels unnatural. One of the best things about Nolan's films is that it doesn't feel like The Avengers.

Superman dying when we know he can't. Bit of an issue too since in TDKR which this borrows heavily from, Superman practically dies after the nuke, then is revived by the Sun. Hence why it's more believable that Batman is dead instead (I guess though The Dark Knight Rises already done something silimar)

Wonderwoman being all over this film, but not actually having her character's motivations explained. She just appears randomly and the photo sub-plot makes no sense. Why would she care?

Lex's motivations are never explained either.

Positives:

The Amy Adams bath scene on a big screen in the cinema 20. It made no sense and was obviously only made so they could put it in the trailer to tease a sex scene in a 12A rated film (PG13) though.

The film if you exclude the Batman origin montage during the credits, looks like it might actually be pretty good until the 2nd dream scene nonsense (batman killing people in Syria or wherever).

I actually enjoyed other parts of the film too, but there's too many flaws with this.

I disagree with Axlin08, it really does not feel like Nolan had any input on any of this films except recommending Han Zimmer.

monkeychow
 Rep: 649 

Re: Suicide Squad/Justice League Films

monkeychow wrote:

I'm reserving judgement on

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the wisdom of including the dream sequences

until after I see Justice League. I would assume it becomes relevant.

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