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Re: The United Kingdom General Election, 2nd May 2024
Their's a silver lining in that both the major parties here in the UK are in civil war with themselves, filled with resignations and arguments amongst themselves (nevermind each other).
On the otherhand, I don't see how that benefits us! The country is moving to the right politically.
Re: The United Kingdom General Election, 2nd May 2024
If your country pulls some shit to avoid leaving the EU, you guys can finally stop pretending you have a democracy. Never mind that half of your legislature requires noble "blood". Or that the crown is still sovereign by law.
I didn't like it when 52% of America elected Obama. But that's our system. It just always amazes me how as soon as their beliefs are tested, progressives abandon them. Free speech, it's great until you say something unpopular. Due Process, great until it gets in the way. Democracy, it's fine until you lose.
All very true, except the part about this being a 'progressives' only problem. A good part of the electorate will indeed often act like you describe, but that is regardless of their political conviction.
Just come out and say you'd rather be led by some bureaucrat in Brussels who was never voted in than actually have a voice in your country.
The difference with the US system isn't nearly as big as you think it is. As you know, living in a republic (and technically not a democracy) the American people do not elect their representatives directly, instead they vote for delegates that elect representatives on their behalf (electors). These electors are not bound by federal law to follow the popular vote, although 26 states have state legislature on the book that requires their electors to follow the popular vote. I'm sure you'll remember that Gore won the popular vote, but Bush ended up being president in 2000.
The EU itself is a parliamentary democracy (like a good deal of it's member states), where you vote for political parties instead of people. These parties have a published an ordered list of representatives indicating the order in which they will assign people to parliament, depending on how many seats they win in the election. So you have a pretty good idea who you're supporting. Often, you'll even get the chance to influence the order of this list during the election itself, by casting so-called "name votes". After the election, a set of parties will try form a coalition that has at least 50%+1 seats in parliament. The biggest party there will nominate the president of the European Commission, which is currently the EPP (European People's Party, the economical and social conservatives over here). The biggest problem is that these pan-European parties aren't really political parties in the classic sense of the word, they are more like a club of likeminded national parties. In fact, when casting your vote, you don't vote for the EPP directly, you vote for your national party that affiliates itself with the EPP. The system is incredibly similar to other forms of representative democracies, but it's all just a little bit more complicated and difficult to understand, which disenfranchises the electorate and makes them feel as if they have little to no control (while in fact, they don't have any more or less control over their government than in the US).
Unfortunately, a lot of national politicians have gotten in the habit of 'blaming Brussels' for not being able to make good on this or that promise, because it's 'out of their control'. That gives the EU a bad rep with a lot of people, but again comparing to the US that isn't too different from state politicians complaining about the federal government's meddling.
Re: The United Kingdom General Election, 2nd May 2024
Their's a silver lining in that both the major parties here in the UK are in civil war with themselves, filled with resignations and arguments amongst themselves (nevermind each other).
On the otherhand, I don't see how that benefits us! The country is moving to the right politically.
Bickering amongst politicians isn't going to benefit anyone indeed, and unfortunately you're seeing that all over the world. It's not necessarily a move to the right I think, more the rise of populism... I'm not sure what we can do against it though.
Re: The United Kingdom General Election, 2nd May 2024
Randall Flagg wrote:If your country pulls some shit to avoid leaving the EU, you guys can finally stop pretending you have a democracy. Never mind that half of your legislature requires noble "blood". Or that the crown is still sovereign by law.
I didn't like it when 52% of America elected Obama. But that's our system. It just always amazes me how as soon as their beliefs are tested, progressives abandon them. Free speech, it's great until you say something unpopular. Due Process, great until it gets in the way. Democracy, it's fine until you lose.
All very true, except the part about this being a 'progressives' only problem. A good part of the electorate will indeed often act like you describe, but that is regardless of their political conviction.
On the night on the results coming in when it looked like Remain would carry the vote, Nigel Farage, who was leading the unofficial Leave campaign, said that with the results so close the decision is inconclusive. Then when it fell on his side he abandoned that stance. It's true what you say.
Re: The United Kingdom General Election, 2nd May 2024
Just come out and say you'd rather be led by some bureaucrat in Brussels who was never voted in than actually have a voice in your country.
I'd rather be led by some bureaucrat in Brussels.
I have more in common with the technocrats that run the EU than I do the Tories.
Re: The United Kingdom General Election, 2nd May 2024
Randall Flagg wrote:Just come out and say you'd rather be led by some bureaucrat in Brussels who was never voted in than actually have a voice in your country.
I'd rather be led by some bureaucrat in Brussels.
I have more in common with the technocrats that run the EU than I do the Tories.
That's part of the problem and exactly my thinking.
I really don't think the people that are unhappy realized that the only people that'll benefit long term are the ones that created this situation.
BBC really seem to think this will force another election, but if people vote for the same parties this will go on. Non Conservative Commentors think whoever pushes the leave button is fucked, that's why Cameron wants Boris to do it.
- Smoking Guns
- Rep: 330
Re: The United Kingdom General Election, 2nd May 2024
The hate the word "conservative" gets baffles me.
- A Private Eye
- Rep: 77
Re: The United Kingdom General Election, 2nd May 2024
I've seen the following popping up a bit, it was originally posted in the Guardian comments section by a known anti Brexit blogger and it makes interesting reading. Part speculation and guess work of course, on what next and the political manoeuvring that may follow but I think it makes some fair assumptions. As Divney said these are politically fascinating times, I just wish they weren't mine.
If Boris Johnson looked downbeat yesterday, that is because he realises that he has lost.
Perhaps many Brexiters do not realise it yet, but they have actually lost, and it is all down to one man: David Cameron.
With one fell swoop yesterday at 9:15 am, Cameron effectively annulled the referendum result, and simultaneously destroyed the political careers of Boris Johnson, Michael Gove and leading Brexiters who cost him so much anguish, not to mention his premiership.
How?
Throughout the campaign, Cameron had repeatedly said that a vote for leave would lead to triggering Article 50 straight away. Whether implicitly or explicitly, the image was clear: he would be giving that notice under Article 50 the morning after a vote to leave. Whether that was scaremongering or not is a bit moot now but, in the midst of the sentimental nautical references of his speech yesterday, he quietly abandoned that position and handed the responsibility over to his successor.
And as the day wore on, the enormity of that step started to sink in: the markets, Sterling, Scotland, the Irish border, the Gibraltar border, the frontier at Calais, the need to continue compliance with all EU regulations for a free market, re-issuing passports, Brits abroad, EU citizens in Britain, the mountain of legistlation to be torn up and rewritten ... the list grew and grew.
The referendum result is not binding. It is advisory. Parliament is not bound to commit itself in that same direction.
The Conservative party election that Cameron triggered will now have one question looming over it: will you, if elected as party leader, trigger the notice under Article 50?
Who will want to have the responsibility of all those ramifications and consequences on his/her head and shoulders?
Boris Johnson knew this yesterday, when he emerged subdued from his home and was even more subdued at the press conference. He has been out-maneouvered and check-mated.
If he runs for leadership of the party, and then fails to follow through on triggering Article 50, then he is finished. If he does not run and effectively abandons the field, then he is finished. If he runs, wins and pulls the UK out of the EU, then it will all be over - Scotland will break away, there will be upheaval in Ireland, a recession ... broken trade agreements. Then he is also finished. Boris Johnson knows all of this. When he acts like the dumb blond it is just that: an act.
The Brexit leaders now have a result that they cannot use. For them, leadership of the Tory party has become a poison chalice.
When Boris Johnson said there was no need to trigger Article 50 straight away, what he really meant to say was “never”. When Michael Gove went on and on about “informal negotiations” ... why? why not the formal ones straight away? ... he also meant not triggering the formal departure. They both know what a formal demarche would mean: an irreversible step that neither of them is prepared to take.
All that remains is for someone to have the guts to stand up and say that Brexit is unachievable in reality without an enormous amount of pain and destruction, that cannot be borne. And David Cameron has put the onus of making that statement on the heads of the people who led the Brexit campaign.
Perhaps wishful thinking but it makes some interesting points.
Re: The United Kingdom General Election, 2nd May 2024
The hate the word "conservative" gets baffles me.
Just to clarify in case this is the cause of your bafflement: itt we're talking about Conservatives not conservatives. In Britain the Conservatives are a political party (The Conservative Party) while, obviously, conservatism is a political philosophy. They're different things.. Although.. Y'know.. You can be conservative without being a Conservative.
- Smoking Guns
- Rep: 330
Re: The United Kingdom General Election, 2nd May 2024
Smoking Guns wrote:The hate the word "conservative" gets baffles me.
Just to clarify in case this is the cause of your bafflement: itt we're talking about Conservatives not conservatives. In Britain the Conservatives are a political party (The Conservative Party) while, obviously, conservatism is a political philosophy. They're different things.. Although.. Y'know.. You can be conservative without being a Conservative.
Thanks for the clarification!
Makes sense now...
Conservative Party vs the Labor Party... Shit can be confusing to an outsider if you are not up on the specifics... Lol
