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Axl S
 Rep: 109 

Re: Current Events Thread

Axl S wrote:
misterID wrote:
Axl S wrote:
slashsfro wrote:

Some of the q stuff is sooo insane that you have to be an idiot to believe in it.    It's the far both left and right that's the worst thing in the USA.  The left has the BLM stuff.  It's more reality based but there's a certain intensity and hate that I find frightening.

What about BLM is hateful? The core tenet of what is espoused by that movement is the opposite. There are some activists who are morons and too aggressive - those people who mobbed round outdoor diners because they wouldn't raise their fists come to mind - and a mixed bag of protestors who chose to use vandalism + those who are just opportunists using it as an excuse to be violent. But at the end of the day I can't see how the actual stance that Black Lives Matter can be viewed as a bad thing. It's why I think the comparisons between them this past week are just flat out wrong.

Same to a lesser extent with the Antifa movement. At its core - being anti fascism is a good a thing. Issue really is how some who say they are part of that movement choose to protest + again those who don't actually care but use any disruption as an excuse to loot and riot.

The Q stuff has no basis in reality and neither does this Stop the Steal stuff. It's apples and oranges and shouldn't be compared.

One is a discussion about how two movements with good aims should operate. The other is frankly a bunch of conspiracy nuts who have started making it their aim to overthrow the results of a legitimate democratic election. These aren't comparable.

The only thing worth comparing between the two is the police and national guard response to a protest movement for racial equality and the response they had to a violent invasion of the US Capitol.

BLM prices itself on not being g a singular organization, basically all the group's around the country have their own ideology, which is off the charts nuts, like their demands are literally ending the United States completely. Even the founders of BLM openly call themselves communists and have strong ties to Venezuela and the Nation of Islam.


Well it's not really an organisation. It's a political movement with different groups who ascribe to it/promote it. As far as what some of them have said are their stated goals, it does not seem that everyone who supports them wants all those things. Most just want black folk not to get shot by cops at the same proportional rate that white folk aren't. If members describe themselves as marxist or communist though... so what? It's a political ideology or philosophy, just debate it. Don't denounce someone just because they describe themselves as that.

I see the word "socialist" thrown around in US political chatter as a bad word by loads... but the US has  Social Security and Medicare and also implemented the New Deal. The US has for almost 90 years now embraced and implemented some socialist policies. I just don't get why these political labels are thrown around as negative things to be feared rather than just things to debate.

Randall Flagg
 Rep: 132 

Re: Current Events Thread

Axl S, you keep saying black people are shot disproportionately, then never qualify it when asked. Your support and empathy of Antifa leads me to believe you haven’t made any effort to qualify your opinions, but I don’t want to assume anything. So can you cite how many unarmed black people are shot versus white, and their representation in violent crime in America?

If you can’t do this and haven’t done this, maybe you shouldn’t be so sure these groups are benign as you choose to express.

Axl S
 Rep: 109 

Re: Current Events Thread

Axl S wrote:
misterID wrote:

Antifa is NOT anti facism, it's anti capitalism, their tenets are pro leftist dictatorship. They can call themselves the party of hugs, lollipops and peace, but it means dick compared to what they stand for.

I mean they are anti-fascism, anti-racism and typically also feminist and just generally socially progressive. They are also largely anti-capitalist... so what?! Having an issue with capitalism isn't necessarily bad. I don't think they describe themselves as hugs and lollipops either.

I'm not really a huge fan of how they go about what they do. The headline principle of theirs - opposing fascism - is one I, and most sensible people, support. But I've said this way way way back in this thread or the old thread - if we're going to discuss these groups lets discuss them as what they are, not as they're described by right wing talking points.

Randall Flagg
 Rep: 132 

Re: Current Events Thread

Proud boys are anti fascism too, that's why they beat the shit out of people who attack strangers for having a different opinion.  Cognitive dissonance is real, and someone isn't being mean to you or talking down to you by pointing out your opinions are void of basis in reality.  This is why violence happens, uneducated people support left wing violence and are shocked when the opposing side reciprocates.

Axl S
 Rep: 109 

Re: Current Events Thread

Axl S wrote:
Randall Flagg wrote:

Axl S, you keep saying black people are shot disproportionately, then never qualify it when asked. Your support and empathy of Antifa leads me to believe you haven’t made any effort to qualify your opinions, but I don’t want to assume anything. So can you cite how many unarmed black people are shot versus white, and their representation in violent crime in America?

If you can’t do this and haven’t done this, maybe you shouldn’t be so sure these groups are benign as you choose to express.


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6080222/

"Victims were majority white (52%) but disproportionately black (32%) with a fatality rate 2.8 times higher among blacks than whites. Most victims were reported to be armed (83%); however, black victims were more likely to be unarmed (14.8%) than white (9.4%) or Hispanic (5.8%) victims."

This shit is borne out in the stats. I don't see how it's controversial to state this.

As for your last point about higher representation in violent crime. Typically violent crime is committed by poorer or working class people. If there is a disproportionate amount of black people in that poor/working class bracket then in the stats there is going to be a greater proportion of violent crime.

I didn't say these movements were benign either. But just labelling them as either marxist/socialist/communist and saying that equals bad just seems dumb to me.

Regardless they aren't even viewed as the biggest threat to the US. Far right, white supremacist terrorism and activism is. US federal agencies back me up on that point.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/ … ing-antifa

https://www.politico.com/news/2020/09/0 … dhs-409236

Axl S
 Rep: 109 

Re: Current Events Thread

Axl S wrote:
Randall Flagg wrote:

Proud boys are anti fascism too, that's why they beat the shit out of people who attack strangers for having a different opinion.  Cognitive dissonance is real, and someone isn't being mean to you or talking down to you by pointing out your opinions are void of basis in reality.  This is why violence happens, uneducated people support left wing violence and are shocked when the opposing side reciprocates.


They are literally a neo-fascist group.

https://www.sun-sentinel.com/florida-je … story.html

Randall Flagg
 Rep: 132 

Re: Current Events Thread

Axl S wrote:
Randall Flagg wrote:

Axl S, you keep saying black people are shot disproportionately, then never qualify it when asked. Your support and empathy of Antifa leads me to believe you haven’t made any effort to qualify your opinions, but I don’t want to assume anything. So can you cite how many unarmed black people are shot versus white, and their representation in violent crime in America?

If you can’t do this and haven’t done this, maybe you shouldn’t be so sure these groups are benign as you choose to express.


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6080222/

"Victims were majority white (52%) but disproportionately black (32%) with a fatality rate 2.8 times higher among blacks than whites. Most victims were reported to be armed (83%); however, black victims were more likely to be unarmed (14.8%) than white (9.4%) or Hispanic (5.8%) victims."

This shit is borne out in the stats. I don't see how it's controversial to state this.

As for your last point about higher representation in violent crime. Typically violent crime is committed by poorer or working class people. If there is a disproportionate amount of black people in that poor/working class bracket then in the stats there is going to be a greater proportion of violent crime.

I didn't say these movements were benign either. But just labelling them as either marxist/socialist/communist and saying that equals bad just seems dumb to me.

Regardless they aren't even viewed as the biggest threat to the US. Far right, white supremacist terrorism and activism is. US federal agencies back me up on that point.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/ … ing-antifa

https://www.politico.com/news/2020/09/0 … dhs-409236


And 50% of murders in this country are committed by black men:

https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/20 … able-6.xls

Your own article says that over 50% of people murdered by police are white, despite only accounting for 30% of murder offenders.  So they're nearly double represented in police homicides relative to their participating in murder, whereas your figures say only 32% of police homicides are aimed at black people despite being over 50% of the demographic committing murder.

Like I said, the figures don't align with the BLM narrative.  Black people are underrepresented in police homicide relative to their participation in murders.  You have to do some really wonky math and ignore the overall picture to create the narrative blacks are unfairly targeted by police, because the numbers don't reflect that.

The leader of the Proud Boys is Enrique Tarrio, a Cuban.  We can go by the book definition of fascism if you like, "a governmental system led by a dictator having complete power, forcibly suppressing opposition and criticism, regimenting all industry, commerce, etc., and emphasizing an aggressive nationalism and often racism."

Who are Antifa standing up against again?  "forcibly suppressing opposition and criticism", hmm who is silencing dissent and is known to violenty assault any demonstration or college speaker they dislike? Was Ben Shapiro a Nazi or fascist?  Ann Coulter?  "regimenting all industry, commerce, etc.", hmm, what party wants to dictate commerce and industry based on their values?  "a governmental system led by a dictator having complete power", we clearly don't have that in the US or Trump wouldn't have been impeached twice and mocked daily by the media, but I can link Schumer last month saying the US will change the world if Democrats have complete control of government.

Randall Flagg
 Rep: 132 

Re: Current Events Thread

Axl S wrote:
Randall Flagg wrote:

Proud boys are anti fascism too, that's why they beat the shit out of people who attack strangers for having a different opinion.  Cognitive dissonance is real, and someone isn't being mean to you or talking down to you by pointing out your opinions are void of basis in reality.  This is why violence happens, uneducated people support left wing violence and are shocked when the opposing side reciprocates.


They are literally a neo-fascist group.

https://www.sun-sentinel.com/florida-je … story.html


They aren't literally anything.  I don't want to be construed as defending these assholes, but one article about one member of a group isn't "literally" representative of anything.  Again, their leader is a cuban named Enrique Tarrio.  He's the leader of the group.  Maybe you have a better history lesson than I, but fascist groups don't normally have a non-white as their leader.  But find more articles with a headline that states what you want without considering the context and who's telling you what to accept.

misterID
 Rep: 472 

Re: Current Events Thread

misterID wrote:

I think we can all agree on being anti fascist... and proud boys are mainly a shady chauvinist group, but have held joint rallies with BLM!

Social Security is not the same as what they're calling for. We're talking the end of the United States completely. No freedom of speech or press or opposed thought. This not merely socialism or communism, this is extremism.

This is where you guys lose me in that "these" extremists aren't as bad as "those" extremists because I like the message these guys have... but you are really downplaying that message.

There is also a not so subtle antisemitism movement in those groups too.

Randall Flagg
 Rep: 132 

Re: Current Events Thread

misterID wrote:

I think we can all agree on being anti fascist... and proud boys are mainly a shady chauvinist group, but have held joint rallies with BLM!

Social Security is not the same as what they're calling for. We're talking the end of the United States completely. No freedom of speech or press or opposed thought. This not merely socialism or communism, this is extremism.

This is where you guys lose me in that "these" extremists aren't as bad as "those" extremists because I like the message these guys have... but you are really downplaying that message.

There is also a not so subtle antisemitism movement in those groups too.


The leaders of Antifa and BLM are also connected to and supported the Nation of Islam, the largest hate group and largest anti-semitic group in the US according to SPLC.  You know who took photos with Farrakhan, yea Obama and Clinton.  Can anyone show me a picture of Trump with David Duke?

P3M5CWGODA673GE3D33UZE2HHU.jpg
200718-louis-farrakhan1.jpg?quality=80&strip=all

https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate … tion-islam

Why won't these republicans stop supporting racism!  Antifa is standing up against racists!

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