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#1091 Re: The Garden » US Politics Thread » 309 weeks ago
I can’t reconcile the left’s desire to destroy monuments, with their martyring of George Floyd. How many Columbus statues? Abolitionist statues? And obviously confederate generals. By modern standards, all these men did bad things. But they also changed the world for the better and are remembered for it for centuries after. Nothing justifies the murder of George Floyd, but he was a horrible human being.
Every living Democratic President has been on the same stage as Farrakhan. Scholars last year released evidence of MLK watching a friend rape a woman (to say nothing of his recorded affairs that would make Clinton and Trump blush).
I couldn’t give a fuck about confederate flags and their monuments. But some people do, and I’m not going to call them evil or immoral before knowing their personal reasons.
I’m just not comfortable with mobs deciding what historical figures need to be erased because of certain actions, while ignoring actions of other people in order to build them up into a symbol of their disjointed movement.
#1092 Re: The Garden » US Politics Thread » 309 weeks ago
I know what you mean. The Nepalese family 2 houses down asked for some help unloading lumber out of their truck. As I carried the wood to their back yard, I thought “is this it? Is this when Mount Everest erupts in Pittsburgh?” Luckily they just wanted to build some raised gardens and thanked me. But for a second....
#1093 Re: The Garden » US Politics Thread » 309 weeks ago
Good point. I know most of the nurses working in close quarters with COVID-19 patients are making around 60k a year. But those athletes throwing a ball outdoors are definitely being fucked over by not being paid millions to do so. I heard a 4 star general makes $140k a year regardless if he/she is in a warzone. I for one think we should take some of the pay for nurses and generals to make sure protesters and professional athletes are comfortable.
#1094 Re: The Garden » US Politics Thread » 309 weeks ago

I think this image kind of sums it up. This person feels she's doing something comparable to a relative who dodged bullets and suffered for months/years in a combat zone. It's completely absurd, but a lot of people have deluded themselves into thinking they're on the front lines of some battle against good and evil. They're just conveniently allowed to escape unscathed and grab a Starbucks on their way home to order Grubhub.
These people aren't unique, I know plenty of idiots who fantasize about another American Revolution every time a politician brings up gun control. My issue is with the media pushing the narrative that these bored millenials are actually doing something, other than making a lot of noise and a big mess. Police aren't going to be defunded. Court systems aren't going to be dismantled. And police officers are never going to be expected to sacrifice their safety/lives so a violent criminal can live to see another day. It's an absurd proposition that no rational person would propose. Yet these are exactly what's being demanded by every protest group in every major city.
The desire to punish bad police, which I completely support, is going to have consequences. Remove the police union, and you have to ask why not the teacher's union, or any public union that prevents bad actors from being removed. True, teachers aren't be accused of excessive force, but if your argument is "Bad teachers shouldn't be removed and should continue to have union protection because they don't kill people", that's not much of an argument.
Because people are so comfortable, safer and informed more so than at any other point in human history, they need to invent drama to add meaning to what they perceive as uneventful lives. Fighting against "racism" is a badge of honor that allows people to feel good about themselves without actually doing anything. If you think the riots and protests are what led to the 4 officers being charged with 2nd degree murder, we're not living the same reality.
CNN, The Post, Times and every other left leaning outlet condemned Americans who participated in memorial day celebrations, calling them a danger to the rest of us and irresponsible in the current COVID climate. They said the same thing in April when hundreds protested lock down orders. Days later, when thousands marched (and rioted) for George Floyd, these same talking heads who had condemned people for grilling out with their family, were now championing people who huddled into huge masses. Very few people are capable of actual, continued intelligent thought, and even fewer are capable of articulating those ideas based on objective truths.
Any discussion of observed differences in demographic groups is immediately derided as racist. This happened yesterday when an Ohio state Senator inquired if the disparity in covid-19 infections among ethnicities may be due to different behavior - ignoring social distancing guidelines and CDC advice on mask use and hand washing. The question was immediately decried as "racist", despite clear evidence that something was occurring to make black and hispanic populations contract the virus more than other demographics. That something can't be linked to racism or genetics, so it has to be behavior based. But any discussion of behavior is prohibited, and anyone who breaks the rule is immediately labeled a racist by people with strong emotional feelings.
So long as we allow people to prohibit discussion, and refuse to consider other narratives other than what mainstream media and social media have already determined to be correct, nothing changes. I said it earlier, Democrats who share a stage with Sharpton or Farrakhan don't get to talk about racism. You can't stand on stage with the leader of the largest hate group in America, and pretend to have moral superiority.
#1095 Re: Guns N' Roses » Rolling Stone Article on Melissa » 309 weeks ago
elevendayempire wrote:Really interesting read. I always find that stuff about what musicians do between the high-profile gigs fascinating, like, the indie movie and video game soundtracks that pay the rent. Also I'm going to be watching that MetLife show to see if I can spot the moment when... y'know.
What did I miss at the MetLife show?
Melissa puked, and swallowed it. So now they give her a bucket.
#1096 Re: The Garden » US Politics Thread » 309 weeks ago
You can’t vote in multiple states or places. Being registered isn’t the same as voting. If anything, this article is a great example of why we should be like every other first world nation and have controls over elections. Democrats fight for laws that keep people registered in multiple places, rather than policing them up.
#1097 Re: The Garden » Racial Discussion » 309 weeks ago
Randall Flagg wrote:There are clear disparities at the macro level. But if we’re not allowed to discuss the reasons for that disparity other than to yell “systemic racism”, we’re not really interested in addressing grievances. Education, behavior, procreation, and work ethic are all traits that define each of our opportunities in life. And they’re each almost entirely in our own hands.
I don't agree with this. I think we have to discuss all of it (which is what I'm trying to do) to dig deeper and find the nuances between everyone has an opportunity and systematic racism. Everyone might have an opportunity, but that doesn't mean they have the same opportunity. Absolutely decisions made when presented with opportunities make a difference, but so does the number (and type) of opportunities presented to people.
For example, I grew up poor. We were on food stamps at times. Our big family vacation of my childhood was driving from Chicago to St Louis to go stay at a Howard Johnson. I was a smart kid but got bored with school easily. Here's where things start to veer off though. I didn't have anywhere near as many "negative" opportunities available to me. I wasn't surrounded by gangs, drugs, prostitution, etc. The worst decisions I made as a child was some very minor shoplifting. Once we moved out to the suburbs, there were even less opportunities for bad choices. I drove by Cabrini Green in Chicago. I went to games at Comiskey Park and Chicago Stadium. I didn't live there and I didn't live that life. I didn't have to dodge that many pot holes just to survive.
I'm not here to blame everything on systematic racism, but I'm not going to pretend it doesn't exist on some level. What I want to know is why? If it's not at the micro-level, then what at the macro-level is allowing this to happen? I think environment matters, and while some of that is socioeconomic more than race, cities like Chicago while they are very diverse, the neighborhoods themselves aren't as much. There's something to it and while I don't blame it for everything like some do, I think the only way we can get past this and make it better is to have real discussion about it. Hard discussion. It's going to hurt people's feelings (not here, in general). But progress will never be made until it happens. Honestly. Lay it all on the table.
But I find the assumption that because someone was black, they experience hardship to be at the heart of the "soft bigotry" Bush II was mocked for championing. The whole purpose of growing up in the 80s and 90s as I did, was to look beyond race. We were taught (rightly so) that you can't make assumptions about someone based off their skin color. (Negative)Preconceived notions based on ethnicity is the definition of racism. If you (society) sees a black 22 year old, and think "that guy must have had a rough go at life, so let's treat him differently", that's the problem that needs to be addressed in my eyes. Cause if that's the view, we can't pretend there's a way forward if we don't view everyone with equal agency.
The problems you mention of drug and crime that seduce a young man into easy money, are the very reason major cities increase their police presence in these communities. As you said, people of similar socioeconomic status tend to huddle, and to a lesser extent, they do based on race. So we know where certain criminal activity is going to occur, and statistics tell us the majority of violent crimes occur in black communities. That is the solution to the disparity in opportunity and circumstance; increased police presence to remove those that facilitate those negative opportunities.
We provide public housing. We provide food stamps. We provide medicaid. We offer head start. We offer a free public education. At this point we're talking about the circumstances of parents, and I don't know how you legislate good parenting. We've dramatically reformed our divorce and child support laws the past 50 years. Do we send dead beat dads to jail? Do we take the opioid addicted mother away? Where does the kid go? What if their family member is just as shitty. What if they have both parents, but they're really shitty people that have no interest in raising a productive member of society? What if their school is full of clowns and trouble makers?
None of these issues are unique to any ethnicity. They apply to people of all colors and creeds. A child's environment is significantly more important to their development and success in life than "systemic racism". There are known factors that increase the likelihood that a man will become a criminal: poverty, single parent home, and low IQ. If there's a disproportionate amount of an ethnicity represented in the data, it's because of factors that cause those three situations. And none of those problems are unique to any ethnicity. So if we're going to fix them, let's fix them for all people. The governor of KY just announced he's going to provide healthcare for all black americans in the state. Ignoring the wonderous task of defining who qualifies as "black" (my 23&me says I have sub-saharan DNA - do I count?), it's blatantly unconstitutional to do such a thing. I mean, c'mon. This isn't a serious solution to the alleged woe, but half the country is cheering this idiot on.
I guess I just feel we should evaluate each individual as a person, and not part of some monolithic demographic. And applying a negative assumption about a person's life experience based on their skin color isn't right. I'm not saying you're intentionally doing this, but it's a mistake I believe to be at the center of the popular discussion on the topic.
#1098 Re: The Garden » Covid 19 » 309 weeks ago
https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/08/health/c … index.html
Damn. Saw buzz already posted. Sure glad I have to wear a mask half the places I go to!
#1099 Re: The Garden » Racial Discussion » 309 weeks ago
I guess I don’t acknowledge the existence of systemic racism, or at least its presence as a primary driving force in disparity between ethnicities in America. If someone can point out a law that is designed to harm people other than whites (cause that’s all we’re talking about when we discuss systemic racism), please do and I’ll advocate its removal. But the past 150 years have been about doing what no other nation has done - integrating and improving a group of people previously subjugated. We can look at the Caribbean or India and see how the standard of living and quality of life differs between them and the UK. The best example you’re going to have is Australia with its Aboriginals, and the US wins that comparison. Australia was closed to non-whites until the late 70s.
I’m genuinely asking for examples of systemic racism in modern America. It’s no secret that in today’s world, all things being even, colleges and corporations choose to pick someone who they can mark as a diversity hire. Colleges are fighting to be allowed to consider race at this moment.
If a black person is harmed by the police, it’s the front page of every local paper, and if one is killed, it’s national news. The notion of the police assaulting minorities with impunity isn’t substantiated. When a police officer does something wrong, the feds are called in to look at civil rights.
Institutional racism (also known as systemic racism) is a form of racism expressed in the practice of social and political institutions. That’s according to Wikipedia. Oxford doesn’t have an entry yet.
Socially, white supremacy is condemned. I don’t know anyone in the mainstream who advocated non-whites are a lesser people. It’s prohibited by state and federal law in terms of considering it to pass policy. Politically, it’s suicide. Run on the platform “Black people aren’t equal to Whites” and see how far you get in the election. I know people will accuse others of this, but they accused Romney, McCain and Bush of this, and at the moment all three are the Bee’s knees. Run on a platform that white people are morally inferior to minorities, and you’re in Congress or writing for the New York Times.
There are clear disparities at the macro level. But if we’re not allowed to discuss the reasons for that disparity other than to yell “systemic racism”, we’re not really interested in addressing grievances. Education, behavior, procreation, and work ethic are all traits that define each of our opportunities in life. And they’re each almost entirely in our own hands.
I don’t have a solution. Punish bad actors to the full extent of the law. Until we hold people accountable, we can’t really discuss solutions.
#1100 Re: The Garden » Racial Discussion » 309 weeks ago
I guess my struggle in empathizing towards the BLM movement is their utter silence on the 99.9% of deaths unrelated to a police officer shooting an unarmed black man. 9 unarmed black men were shot by police last year. Approximately 5500 were killed by a firearm from another black man - 50% of all firearm homicides in the US, despite only being 12% of the population.
5 black men have been murdered by (presumably) black men in the Pittsburgh area the past week. We’ve had protests every day for George Floyd, with over 1k people staging a lay-in (they pretend to be dead) in front of the jail on Friday. Not a single mention about any of these five men, but a lot about George Floyd.
If the premise of BLM is that the lives of black people are undervalued in the US, and thus the statement, “Black Lives Matter” needs to be stated to bring awareness to this, how is such a notion compatible with the utter massacre inflicted on black lives largely by other black lives.
The movement is filled with disinformation and outright lies. “Hands up don’t shoot” is a lie. Michael Brown never surrendered, he never put his hands up. The autopsy showed this and was affirmed under Eric Holder and Obama. Brown charged the police officer after trying to disarm him, and was shot. That’s as clear cut a case of when lethal force is justified. You assault a police officer, resist arrest, then attempt to charge the police officer while he has his weapon drawn to protect himself from the assault you initiated, you’re going to die in every country on earth. Yet “hands up don’t shoot” has become as synonymous as “I can’t breathe!” Yes, this slogan absolutely applies to George Floyd. But it’s been repeated for years since Eric Garner, who again, was proven not to be choked to death and clearly resisted arrest. Garner was repeatedly asked to not sell black market cigarettes and bootlegs in front of a store. Repeatedly. The police had let him go many times before, but at what point do we have to enforce the law? So the police go to arrest him, he puts up a fight, and has a heart attack. That’s what happened. He wasn’t choked to death. And in both the Brown and Grey incidents, a jury evaluated all testimony (with black jurors) and came back not guilty. So to lead a movement based on the lie that these men were murdered, undercuts they integrity of the entire thing. Same with Trayvon Martin. Yes, George Zimmerman is a known douche now. But that didn’t now or then entitle Martin to knock Zimmerman to the ground, and repeatedly bash his head into the concrete. Only when his head was being repeatedly beat against the concrete, did Zimmerman pull his gun and shoot Martin. That’s what the forensic evidence and medical exams of both Zimmerman and Martin said. You can hypothesize and conjecture all you want, but you better have a story that supported by the forensic evidence.
How many unarmed white people were killed last year? Black people commit more crimes than any other ethnicity. That’s not a racist statement, it’s objective fact. Half the murders in this country are done by black men. Unless you know of thousands of hidden murders that the police have failed to register, you can’t negate this fact. And if you acknowledge it, you have to acknowledge that any prudent police department is going to focus on the areas where the most felony 1s are committed. So despite that disparity, black men aren’t killed equally relative to their representation in police calls.
Yes, I agree there is absolutely a lot culturally, socially and institutionally that feed into this discussion. But the current climate seems to be centered around police brutality, and only alleged police brutality towards black men. Minneapolis wants to disband it’s police force. The notion is absurd, but let’s assume it actually happens. Granted, if there’s no police, black men can’t be murdered like George Floyd was. I’d like to point out that Floyd’s murderers are being charged with 2nd degree murder, and were charged before the protests even took place. So I don’t know what more in the incident if George Floyd people want. But on topic, no police, so 9 Unarmed black men aren't killed. But what about the 5491 other black men? How many more of them die because there’s no police violence to mitigate the violence in the black community that takes 5500 black lives each year?
If I’ve missed something, tell me. But I disagree with the notion black lives are undervalued. In fact, I’d argue the black community devalues black lives the most since they’re responsible for the most black deaths. To take it a step further, it’s well known that witnesses tend not to cooperate with police in these murders. Leaving murderers on the street, to take more black lives.
I believe police actions should be reviewed. I believe those found to be in violation of the law should be punished. But I don’t support dehumanizing police. How many police officers have been murdered or shot in the past week? Anybody? They’re humans too, and they don’t forfeit their right to defense by wearing a badge. Their lives are just as important as anyone else’s. I haven’t seen the marches for the officers murdered in cold blood, including the black officers who have been killed the past week.
So I’m summation, I don’t understand BLM. I find most of them to be misinformed and taken advantage of by pieces of shit like Al Sharpton, and the countless others who peddle his wares. I’d love someone to explain what I’ve got wrong and what I’m missing. But I make decisions on data and the researched truth. So please provide those figures rather than your opinion on how others value the life of someone you didn’t no existed.
