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#1101 Re: The Garden » US Politics Thread » 310 weeks ago

You don’t get to dictate what conversation others have. Irish asked when did Americans start to distrust their government/become so partisan, and offered Iraq as a possible start date.  He’s not American, so he can be forgiven for not intimately knowing the 1990s (or any decade before that, since any would qualify) and immediately understanding that Americans believe all kinds of crazy shit and can point to virtually any event as some catastrophe. I don’t think we’re unique in this regard, but the world’s media isn’t pointing a spotlight and broadcasting dissent in any other nation like the US. So our shit gets a lot more focused attention and limited context than their own internal strife. Be honest, do you even know who the president of Ireland is?

No one here is interested in arguing about the justification of the war. It’s been over for 9 years. You’re free to post about it, but you don’t get to demand everyone change the topic and participate with you because you want to create an argument about Iraq. You’re free to believe Americans didn’t hold any animosity towards the truthfulness of their government until March 2003.

What really happened is you entered a thread uninformed, parroting some talking point you saw on social media. It was objectively wrong on its face, and really had nothing to do with what was being discussed.

You repeatedly and exclusively manufacture arguments so you can try to toss strikes and knock over all the pins. Rarely do your posts even attempt to acknowledge what the poster you’re replying to said, let alone respond to what they said. And when pressed to provide a citation for one of your wild claims (like Neo Nazis having anything to do with the riots that occurred last weekend), you ignore the request or link something you clearly didn’t read that doesn’t support your point.

Example:

Poster 1 :”these far left antifa types need to be held accountable for their actions.”

Mitch: “I don’t even know what antifa is, but these neo Nazi boogaloo boys are out threatening to kill people in Chicago”

Poster 1: “after researching the boogaloos boys, I find information that says they haven’t participated in any violence, and aren’t neo nazis. They seem to be very close to antifa”

Mitch: “you don’t even know what antifa is, but I do. I’m going to completely ignore the mounds of evidence of antifa’s violence and not mention them. But this is definitely neo nazis and you need to acknowledge that. Please defend neo nazis to make this easy.”

Poster 1: “Can you provide any evidence the boogaloo boys are neo nazis or members of the violent protests last weekend?  It was clearly antifa. Did you even read the articles that contradict your view?”

Mitch: “Here’s a graph my nephew made of the atmospheric pressure on Mars relative to the amount of racial attacks my sister graphed based on a 20 sided die she rolled. How can you not see this is Neo Nazis!”

Poster 1: “....”

Mitch: “why won’t you guys play with me”

#1102 Re: The Garden » US Politics Thread » 310 weeks ago

Creating arguments, because your original failed.  Same song, same dance.  What was military spending under Obama?  Clinton?

#1103 Re: The Garden » US Politics Thread » 310 weeks ago

Around 17% of the budget is spent on the military.  People linking sources without citations, and ignoring facts that can be verified with a quick google search are part of the problem.  They think they're informed, repeat falsehoods, and never acknowledge they were wrong, let alone try to improve.  This is why we can't have meaningful dialogue, when people are allowed to repeat absolute falsehoods.

The defense budget passed in late 2019 was for 686 billion.  The budget was for 3.8 Trillion.  You can do the math your self.

#1104 Re: The Garden » US Politics Thread » 310 weeks ago

The US military doesn't take up 50-60% of the budget.  Jesus Christ......

#1105 Re: The Garden » US Politics Thread » 310 weeks ago

I posted this on facebook earlier in the week, and thought it was applicable here too:

So, I had some thoughts I wanted to share related to Trump removing protesters from the White House area.  If that’s not your thing, or you couldn’t care less what I think, keep scrolling. My news feed has recently been filled with Dodo videos of abandoned animals being rescued, and I find them adorable, so please check that out.

On Topic:  I think this event is something every American should consider.  I’m not going to address George Floyd or the activities of the protest other than to establish them as an obvious backdrop to what occurred Monday.  What happened was wrong, and I fully support all 4 officers being charged with or as accessories to 2nd degree murder.  So, let’s establish exactly what happened.  American citizens were exercising their 1st Amendment rights in the vicinity around the White House.  I can’t think of anything more symbolic and representative of the 1st Amendment, than screaming “FUCK YOU” at the gate of the White House.  Try that in Beijing, Tehran, Moscow and even some European countries, and you won’t be happy with the results.  A lot of people are paying lip service to 1st Amendment, but I honestly believe in what it represents, and specifically what it says.  I don’t believe in “Hate Speech” laws, or even the concept of hate speech. The concept of free expression isn’t compatible with subjective limits.  Libel and slander notwithstanding, it’s free game.  Just don’t expect immunity from ridicule and condemnation – no one is obligated to be nice to you.

People exercising their 1st Amendment right were forcefully removed from the White House area so that President Trump could walk to a photo opportunity.  That’s what it was - a photo opportunity.  I’ve heard that narrative that Trump was showing force to prevent future riot like behavior, but he didn’t clear the protesters at that moment to prevent property damage or ensure the integrity of the White House.  He cleared them because there was no way for the President of the United States to safely walk outside with thousands of people in throwing distance.  He chose to end the most sacred American right of hundreds if not thousands of peaceful protesters, so he could walk safely and appear tough on television.  That’s what happened, and no amount of spin changes that reality.

Reports in the media differ on level of force, but everyone seems to agree that flash bangs and smoke grenades were used.  Even if the claims of rubber bullets and tear gas are true, it doesn’t change the underlying reality that the President of the United States used force to end a Constitutionally protected right.  Nothing you can say about the nature of some of the protesters negates that the President ended a lawful protest so he could appear strong in front of his supporters, because dickheads in the media found it funny the President went to the panic room when hundreds of people violently tried to storm the White House.  If he stood in the Rose Garden with an M-16, the same talking heads would have criticized him.  Trump violated the 1st Amendment rights of hundreds of Americans so he could smirk at Anderson Cooper. 

Those already Anti-Trump agree with me, or like that a “Republican” is publicly condemning Trump.  But this is for those of you trying to perform the mental gymnastics to justify Trump’s actions.  To that I ask you to engage in a mental exercise with me.  Imagine it’s March 2021, and Biden is the President.  Democrats have taken the Senate, and the first thing the Democratic congress and President do is pass a sweeping assault weapons ban.  You can fill in the details, but anything would piss you off, so be creative.  Thousands of peaceful 2nd Amendment activist storm the National Mall.  Hundreds gather outside the White House with AR-15s slung over their backs as is often the case.  It’s made clear that no violence is allowed, but you’re here to make it known that you find this new law an affront to the Constitution, and you’re angry and want change.  We’ll even grant that no single person out of thousands does anything inappropriate.  Though if 15 idiots smacked up someone, I’m sure you wouldn’t find their actions representative of you and the movement.  You’d probably even advocate that they be punished for their actions.  But despite the peaceful protest, President Biden marches from the West Wing to show that he understands many Americans are lawful gun owners, but he won’t be surrounded by armed hostiles and wants to really stick it to Sean Hannity on prime time. AG Harris orders the secret service and FBI to launch flash bangs and smoke grenades into the crowd to clear a path.  Alex Jones and Twitter are full of reports of tear gas and rubber bullets. 

What would the NRA and Fox News say?  For folks that carry a “Don’t Tread on Me” flag, I can’t imagine such actions being received well.  So, if in this mental exercise you find yourself living out your fantasies of Red Dawn or Rambo, you must reconcile that to what happened Monday.  At least acknowledge it. 

If you have information that is superior to mine, please share.  But I ask that you attempt to justify the President of the United States intentionally violating the 1st Amendment right of American citizens.  And in the future when you accuse someone of violating the Constitution, remember what occurred on June 1st, 2020 and your feelings about that.

#1106 Re: The Garden » US Politics Thread » 310 weeks ago

IRISH OS1R1S wrote:

Completely disagree with comparing what happened to that man and what happens during war. Even if someone is breaking a curfew they still have rights and cops have no right to assault a man unless he is resisting or a threat and that was assault regardless if he tripped after.

Your other post regarding the media, yep they hold the blame for a lot of the feelings held by citizens. I don't watch much American news, but have been watching cnn and fox recently. My god they spend more time attacking each other than actually giving us the news. It's crazy.

You don't think Iraq planted seeds of distrust? I can say over this side of the pond it had a huge effect on opinions towards the US government.

Tony Blair was fully on board with Iraq, so if UK members solely blame America, they need to do some soul searching.  But to answer your question, no.  Plenty of Americans believe JFK wasn't killed by Oswald, LBJ and the gulf of tonkin, we didn't land on the moon, Nixon and watergate, Reagan created aids and the crack epidemic, Clinton and his numerous scandals, Bush and Iraq, Obama's numerous scandals (saying he didn't have scandals doesn't make it true) to include what we now know about FBI behavior related to Russia and Clinton, and everything Trump has done, are all icing on the cake and equally important.  The reality is the American left wing has become more and more radical, abandoning reason.  Republicans have mostly been anti-abortion, but Democrats have continued to march leftward.  10 years ago everyone agreed illegal immigrants shouldn't be allowed to enter the nation and stay, but somehow that position moved and if you disagree it's racist.  Biden passed one of the toughest crime bills in American history, and all the mainstream candidates save Warren and Sanders have substantial records showing their "touch on crime" credentials, to include Klobuchar and Harris.  American media is in open revolt against the current occupant of the White House and rushes to put stories forward that push that narrative.  Fox News is just as bad, but compared to every other large outlet, it's not even a close comparison.  These platforms have a near monopoly on information, and if they're pushing an agenda instead of reporting the facts (front page of yahoo today is trying to blame the riots on White Supremacist), reasonably informed people are going to hold their claims as suspect.

#1107 Re: The Garden » US Politics Thread » 310 weeks ago

IRISH OS1R1S wrote:
buzzsaw wrote:

Not on a laptop so this won't be a long post, but what was the straw that broke the camel's back in US politics?  The more I think about it (some "friends" were discussing on FB), the more I think it was the Clinton impeachment.

The Iraq war possibly? After the whole wmd fiasco I feel it created division and major trust issues between the citizens and government. I feel attitudes towards America changed in not just American, but the world.


Nah, the utter disappearance of the anti-war movement the moment Obama was sworn in negates that.  It's the American media, they control the narrative.  They just had Al Sharpton in syndication, and want to pretend they're objective purveyors of information.

#1108 Re: The Garden » US Politics Thread » 310 weeks ago

IRISH OS1R1S wrote:

Twitter is indeed a cesspool and research is advised on any tweet/article (same goes for most online sources) . Fuck I don't even believe half of what's on news channels.

I hope that man sues, that was disgusting. No need to treat people like that unless they are being violent or a threat.


The problem is they're going to call his advancement a threat.  I wouldn't be threatened by an old man, but I wouldn't be threatened by a child or small woman either.  But as someone who was in Iraq during the surge, I know people are capable of using those biases to their advantage and plenty of women and children were suicide bombers because people are less likely to perceive them as a threat. 

The idea that anyone can ignore police instructions and not suffer the consequences for it needs to end.  I think the old man stumbled over his feet more than he was pushed to the ground, and the use of force should absolutely be evaluated.  But if police tell you to disperse, and you not only ignore them but walk up to them, you can't feign surprise when they respond. 

Now that Democratic politicians are posting on Twitter to defund the police, they've completely left the farm.  What rioters did in every major american city can't be condoned or tolerated.  I'm outraged at what Trump did Monday, but we can't forget or overlook the damage and violence that was caused because big cities refused to protect their citizens and businesses.  When people are left to loot and destroy stores for 15-24 hours, our leaders have broken the social contract.  If ever there was justification for personal firearm ownership, the past 7 days have proven it. 

But people don't get to dehumanize police officers and treat them as objects for their irrational fury, anymore than police officers get to dehumanize suspects and inflict harm on them without consequence.  More police officers have been killed and harmed than unarmed black people. 

2 black men were shot in Pittsburgh yesterday, and one died.  Yet at the 1000 person protest yesterday, no one mentioned the name of the black man who had died just hours earlier.  It makes me wonder if they really care about black lives, or just the opportunity to appear woke.

#1109 Re: The Garden » US Politics Thread » 310 weeks ago

IRISH OS1R1S wrote:

Damn that Sharpton eulogy, dude can give a speech. I won't lie I got emotional a few times during this funeral.


It amazes me that one of the most racist and despicable men in American race relations, is somehow allowed to continue to speak as some authority figure in civil rights.  The man is a blatant anti-Semite and has supported rioting and harm to Jews in New York.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crown_Heights_riot
https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/ … r-justice/

He's one of the primary reasons I chuckle when the far left postures standing next to him, claiming some moral authority over discussions and opinions regarding racial inequity in the US.

#1110 Re: The Garden » US Politics Thread » 310 weeks ago

bigbri wrote:

This one’s for Flagg: Did you see CNN reached one of the boogaloo boys who was packin’ in the Minneapolis riots? I actually saw this dude either in a livestream or Facebook photo or something. Somebody outed him on the spot because of his distinctive hair. https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/03/us/booga … index.html


I did not, at least until you linked it.  Yea, they're douches.  The Vice article I linked earlier made mention of them.  They're a diverse group like Antifa, and I personally find it hard to distinguish between the two.  Boogaloo boys appear to come armed, while Antifa just has melee weapons.  I still haven't seen far right groups participating in the rioting, which was the original claim made.  This article doesn't change that.  Antifa members around the country have been arrested for using Molotov cocktails : https://fordhamobserver.com/46894/news/ … r-protest/

Vegas PD say they found some guys with them.  American media was trying to push the narrative that Neo Nazi groups were inciting/participating in violent acts, completely ignoring that all documented events of actual violence and damage have been initiated by Antifa types, or those aligned with BLM.  BLM is mostly good people, but Antifa is based entirely around violent behavior.  My issue was with the narrative that not only were white supremacist groups to blame for the violence, but that events where Antifa was guilty were being staged by Neo Nazis to give the left a bad name.  That's a complete mis-characterization of reality, and completely ignores that credible mainstream outlets like the Washington Post, The NY Times, and mainstream networks like CNN and MSNBC, promoted Antifa as an empathetic organization that wasn't responsible for countless assaults and riots across the country.  When the White House was being attacked this past weekend, these outlets tried to steer the blame away from Antifa and the voices they had told their viewers were not a threat to civil society, and to continue to permit their actions.  That was my argument.

If and when Neo Nazis show up (and your own article acknowledges that the Boogaloo boys aren't Neo Nazis), I'll condemn them and demand they be removed just as strongly as I have antifa.

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