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#1261 Re: The Garden » 2016 Presidential Election Thread » 508 weeks ago
But doesn't it bother you that he says one thing, and then does another? That he preaches 'Americanism', but makes his Trump branded ties in China? Doesn't it bother you that his tax plan, vague as it was, has had to be revised significantly by outsiders to minimize the disastrous costs associated with the original? Doesn't it bother you that his whole 'business accumen' shtick is completely fabricated out of thin air?
No, because I don't see inconsistency, I see strategy. His game is to say something that will cause controversy, but in such a way that he can modify it later. It gets him the publicity he wouldn't have otherwise, and it enables him to take strong positions and make it look like a softening when he starts out so crazy. On taxes I recognize his intention is solid, lowering them. It keeps productivity high and forces government to be more economic with their funds to achieve their goals. I don't worry that they will be too low since there is no set amount a government needs to run, and any actual plans would be worked out by a group of professionals. Of course this government might not be able to continue running, but that's exactly what a voter like me wants. I don't think ones business acumen can be overrated much when you have become a billionaire. He's an intelligent, rich man who raised his kids well. That last part is particularly significant when judging a man's moral character for me. Is he a choir boy? No, but neither is Hillary Clinton.
But doesn't it bother you that he says one thing, and then does another? That he preaches 'Americanism', but has his buildings built by undocumented Polish immigrant workers? That he's fine with Western immigrants under the current regime? That he fails to recognize that the US has by far the strictest immigration policies and longest, most thorough review system of any Western country in place already? That his minimum wage stance basically changes with the direction of the wind?
You don't survive in business without taking advantage of every opportunity. That's how the market is, you either use immigrants or go under. That doesn't necessarily prevent him from wanting a change. He can do business using Americans as long as his competitors are forced to do the same. He appears to be fine with most types of legal immigrants far as I know. Not just westerners. That might be, but that doesn't stop the US from having a bunch of immigrants, legal and illegal. Too many for sustainable levels.
You might think that the opposition to his presidency is an indication that he is 'the real deal' (proof is too big a word for that, but I'll give you that it could be an 'indicator'), but isn't the simpler explanation that they just fear that a big part of the electorate might actually be dumb enough to vote for him and that's why they fight him so vehemently?
You're right, I'll say evidence instead.
That would be a simpler explanation if it was just some of them, or even most. But it's almost total. Where are all those journalists who I know must be seeing some of the same things I'm seeing? That his policies have the potential for good and that in reality he isn't all that scary? That it's a shot worth taking? Not like he's running for dictator. Can't just go wild.
They don't exist because the media hasn't been about objectivity for quite some time. It's either get with the current paradigm or lose your job. So you see this insane, concerted response when somebody threatens them, like it's a football team, or perhaps rather a cult. One of political correctness and corporate relationships. Finding the truth (on both, on all sides) and covering it is like so yesterday now. Sickening.
Yeah, that has worked well in the past... like the US supporting Saddam Hussein in the 80's simply because he was the enemy of their enemy.
It has. WWII was won that way. It's not a maxim for nothing.
This whole media conspiracy theory is confusing me. The mainstream media in the US is all owned by prominent right wingers, it has a demonstrably right wing bias. Isn't the simpler explanation that they know Trump's behavior is the old-people equivalent of click-bait, and they know putting a negative, faux-outrage spin on Trump stories is going to give them the best ratings? It draws in both the Trump lovers (because they love it when Trump gets airtime), and the Trump haters (because the pundits mock/challenge him).I'm not denying the media has genuine power, but when they truly want to diminish a candidate's chances they just freeze him/her out (see Gary Johnson/Jill Stein and the silly debate threshold thingy they have going on).
Now, to be fair, I'm not saying that I'm not buying your reasoning at all. I do believe Trump is different from the GOP candidates of yore, and I'm sure that does worry the right wing establishment. I'm sure the Kochs' really do feel more aligned with Hillary, and that is genuine cause for concern for the country if she gets elected. But besides being 'not Hillary' there seems to be nothing good about Trump, and a lot of things seem a whole lot worse to me.
Most Trump supporters seem to recognize his 'crazy rhetoric' (to use your words), but brush it off as posturing/campaign tactics. That is insane to me! It basically confirms that they know he's lying and/or exaggerating, but they'll vote for him anyway. They're saying that they'll vote for someone that they recognize is lying to their face!
If you're really that curious to find out what a country run by an insecure, shady, power-hungry business man looks like, have a look at what Italy was like when Berlusconi was in charge. The only difference being that Berlusconi is actually more intelligent than a sack of potatoes.
Conspiracies is out of style man. It's all about the natural law now. 
Right/Left doesn't matter. Those terms are just two sides of the same coin. What they all are is establishment, and beyond anything they want to stay that way. They got a good game going, everybody profiting, and they don't want that to end. That's the common interest. Once you allow money and media to mix you will start to get those relationships. Once you allow politics and money to mix you'll get them. It's not a conspiracy, it's just good old corruption and decadence. Nothing new, and we all know where it will end if something doesn't change.
Freezing out opponents is their go to strategy and it is usually successful. Ron Paul was marginalized in that way, the independent candidates suffer it every 4 years. You'd think if the media was dominated by intelligence and objectivity these type of candidates would get a little bit of traction, but that simply isn't the case. What you get is John McCain teaming up with Sarah Palin. The honest journalist still exist, but he's fringe and has no real impact.
But I digress. With Trump that played out differently. His statements were both controversial and "simple" at the same time. Easy click bait. They had to cover him. The chance to discredit him while at the same time making profits is a tough opportunity to pass up. This had the unexpected effect of turning Trump into the front runner because a lot of people actually agreed what the media figured were kill shots. It reminds me a little of when Alexander invaded Persia, and he found growing food stuffs to feed his army for as long as the eye could see. Because the governors in the region wouldn't risk their bottom lines by burning them down. Defeating his paltry army would be easy they said. So now they're sending army after army after him, one bigger than the last.
I figure the main difference between us is that my cynicism towards the establishment is greater and my knee jerk reactions to it more ingrained. Seeing somebody like Trump defying them is like watching that Tiananmen Square picture with the guy standing in the way of a tank. That overrides any other issue I might have at the time. With Trump it has enabled me to warm up to the man. In the beginning I just liked the chaos he created, now I'm starting to come around on his policies.
If he turns out to be just another Berlusconi it would still be better than having Hillary Clinton in there. At least we could have a laugh.
#1262 Re: The Garden » 2016 Presidential Election Thread » 508 weeks ago
Trump keeps gaining, now 1% off, significant spike in black support (14,1%).
#1263 Re: The Garden » 2016 Presidential Election Thread » 508 weeks ago
His main selling points policy vice for me are foreign, economic and immigration.
Since I'm not American but live in a country dancing to America's tune, I like his isolationist tendencies. If he can force my country to become more independent, great. If he can stop us doing hit missions for NATO, great. He's the only candidate offering this.
On economics he takes the anti globalist stance. Like Bernie he offers more than empty phrases about creating more jobs. He points out the problem, industry moving abroad for the cheap labor. In contrast to Bernie he doesn't blame it all on "the rich". I despise this polarization between rich and poor. It's not all or nothing.
On immigration he points out what I consider an obvious truth, the mass importation of low skilled labor is devastating to the working and middle class. The west have spent centuries building up a relatively fair labor market, and now people come here to work a third world job earning a third world wage. It's not sustainable and it's not moral.
The reason I don't care at all about his crazy rhetoric is the uniform opposition to him from the establishment. One hand I recognize he has to do it that way to get publicity, see Ron and Rand Paul for what happens if you just stick to intelligent, sensible phrases (they ignore you into oblivion), on the other the opposition proves he is the real deal. That trumps any lack of consistency and intelligent plans, because what good are those if you'll never follow through?
Do I trust him? No, don't know him personally. Do I think he can get all this shit done? Maybe not. But it's a shot, with Hillary or any other regular candidate, I know 100% what I'm going to get. It's why I have never voted in my life. It's pointless. With Trump however I have regained faith, because they fear him. The enemy of my enemy is my friend.
People like Johnson can't win, nor do they have the benefit of a defiant media giving me faith they are the real deal. That last part will sell me on any candidate. So far only Trump and the Paul's meet those criteria.
#1264 Re: The Garden » 2016 Presidential Election Thread » 508 weeks ago
A Simple Explanation Why Trump Will Win
While watching Phelps win his 23rd gold medal I realized that wherever he went he was treated with great deference. It was just understood that Phelps as the dominate athlete was the leader of the Olympic team.
That’s the way people act in society. People want and need strong leadership.
What will count to the voters in the presidential race is who they think can be trusted with their future. This perception of the voter of who will best lead is going to be their ultimate voting reality.
As the first leg of the presidential race unfolds, it seems Mrs. Clinton is swimming upstream against a swift current. Even with the entire media industry and an untold number of surrogates standing in for Mrs. Clinton, every day brings new revelations of her lying, cheating, bribery and the faint possibility of a criminal indictment.
It weighs her campaign down like lead weights.
Mr. Trump is swimming through choppy waters to be sure. But he seems to power through and gets stronger and more energetic as the race goes on. He radiates an aura of power and charisma which infuriates his detractors and delights his supporters.
Much as the Mrs. Clinton supporters and the anti-Trump crowd would like to call the race over and unilaterally declare that Mrs. Clinton is the winner, the race for the presidency is just getting started.
September 26 will be the first time Mrs. Clinton and Mr. Trump will compete mano-a-mano if you will pardon the expression. I’m planning on having a pizza/sushi party at my house.
What will happen when they are finally just one on one with no place to hide?
Past performance is no guarantee of future results, but the Democratic and Republican primary races shows us how Mrs. Clinton and Mr. Trump may perform.
Mrs. Clinton only won the Democrat Party primaries against an aged underfunded socialist/communist by literally rigging the election. If the primary were straight up, she would most likely would have lost. What is not speculation is that 21% fewer Democrats turned out to participate in the primaries this time around.
Trump dominated the Republican primaries where the major media was unmistakably biased against him as were the ruling Republican Political Establishment figures.
In the Republican primary, 62% more voters turned out than any previous Republican primary contest. Trump himself got the largest number of primary votes ever in the history of the Republican Party.
What about the issues and past accomplishments?
The political issues of the 1960s so engrained in Mrs. Clinton are in sharp contrast to the new voter’s desire for financial security, opportunity, and having a strong military and police for protection from the dangers of radical Islamic terrorists. A highly politically correct generation is being horrified by the proliferation of Black Lives Matter generated riots. The promise of getting union controlled factory jobs is not overly enticing.
Mrs. Clinton’s campaign is doing its best to run away from her actual record as a Senator, Secretary of State, and head of the Clinton Foundation. She has made it her life’s work to sell influence and government favors at the expense of the taxpayers. They certainly want to avoid reminding potential voters that Mrs. Clinton’s lies, cheats, and invariably has disastrous judgment.
Mr. Trump’s life is an open book. It’s all been played out publicly for his entire career. He is running on his actual record of performance. In a highly competitive global world, his name goes on everything he does. People eagerly pay extra to buy a Trump condo or stay in a Trump hotel. He grew up in the building trades and understand that a construction business is only as successful as the talent of its people.
Mr. Trump speaks in the language of working people — not the Washington, D.C. or elitist Orwellian double-speak. Working people relate to what Mr. Trump is saying not much differently than they would if Joe the Plumber was a billionaire and running for high office.
On September 26th, Mrs. Clinton and Mr. Trump will be one-on-one with no place to hide.
What really matters in this debate (and most decisions in life) is optics not policy. People do not systematically process information, and decisions are made emotionally. In the animal kingdom the pack always instinctively choses its alpha dog to lead.
Mrs. Clinton’s shrill voice is not pleasant to which to listen. She comes across as a mix between a mid-level policy wonk and snake-oil salesperson. Bernie Sanders appeared to be genuine and thereby dominated the primary debate almost at will.
Outside the debates Mrs. Clinton lets surrogates act in her place. Unless she has a complete make-over, she will appear on stage against Mr. Trump as a tired old 5’2’’stiff façade of an over-rehearsed politician promoting special interest agenda’s.
Trump is a 6’4’ vigorous male whose voice and tone are most engaging when speaking carefully. When he walks onto a stage it is as if he owns the whole studio. He dominated every primary debate against all the other well-funded and experienced Republican contenders. And he controls the news today. His campaign, like everything else he has done in life, is all Trump.
Why do I think Mr. Trump will win the debates and ultimately the presidential election?
My explantion is simple.
In this election cycle, Mr. Trump is the Alpha Dog of the pack.
#1265 Re: The Garden » 2016 Presidential Election Thread » 508 weeks ago
polluxlm wrote:Never in my life have I seen such a media campaign against someone. Typing Trump and news in google and it's pages upon pages, all negative.
The guy says horrible things. What do you expect?
I expect nothing less from our corrupt system.
We should expect them to do their damn job though. But I guess most people just don't care anymore.
#1266 Re: The Garden » 2016 Presidential Election Thread » 508 weeks ago
Never in my life have I seen such a media campaign against someone. Typing Trump and news in google and it's pages upon pages, all negative.
Someone's desperate, and I don't think it's because he will "lose easily".
I didn't get to see all of Trump's speech tonight. What I did see of it I liked.
I liked Trump the minute I saw how much the establishment hated him, but I had to watch one of his speeches to find out that his policies are actually quite good. If he can do half of what he says it will be great for America.
#1267 Re: The Garden » 2016 Presidential Election Thread » 508 weeks ago
Clinton and Trump in Statistical Tie; Trump Has Closed the Gap Among Older Millennials
If the election for President were being held today and the Democratic nominee for President is Hillary Clinton and the Republican nominee for President is Donald Trump; the Libertarian nominee is Gary Johnson and the Green party nominee is Jill Stein for whom would you vote?
Hillary Clinton 38%
Donald Trump 36%
Gary Johnson 8%
Jill Stein 5%
Not sure 13%
*Percentages may not equal 100% due to rounding.
The Takeaways: In a new Zogby Analytics online poll conducted August 12-13, +/-2.8% MOE, we asked 1,277 likely voters who they would vote for if the election for President were being held today. Since our Last poll in early July, Clinton still maintains a small 2% lead over Trump. It seems the convention bumps are behind us and we are back to a close race!
Donald Trump continues to lead among his core groups, which are men, he leads Clinton 41% to 35%. He also leads Clinton among older likely voters such as 50-64 year olds (41%-36%), and those 65+ (44%-36%).
Trump's numbers have dipped a little among middle income voters, Hillary Clinton now leads among those voters who earn $35k-50k (38%-37%), $50k-75K (37%-34%) and $75-100k (45-35%). Clinton also leads big among her core base-Millennials 18-29 years old (36%-26%), 18-24 year olds (59%-22%), Hispanics (51%-18%) and African Americans (81%-8%), which is not a big surprise. She has also won back the support of women voters, which Trump had narrowed the gap in our last poll; Clinton is winning among women 42% to 32%.
Trump has kept the race close by winning Independents. He is winning Independents 32% to 26% and has also closed the gap among older Millennials. Trump is tied with Clinton at 30% among 25-34 year old voters. Another interesting development is over the years we have tracked voting habits among NASCAR fans and Weekly WalMart shoppers. Ten years ago these groups tended to slant conservative and Republican. That trend has been reversed during the Obama Presidency, and these consumers tend to be more liberal and supporters of Democrats today. Trump has reversed this trend. Both NASCAR fans and WalMart shoppers favor Trump over Clinton. Donald Trump is winning NASCAR fans (44% to 36%) and weekly WalMart shoppers 41% to 36%.
#1268 Re: The Garden » 2016 Presidential Election Thread » 508 weeks ago
Donald Trump’s astonishing tactics make history irrelevant
One of the great spectacles of this election season has been the variety and intensity of Trump-hating. Few can beat Vanity Fair’s early contribution of words and images titled Donald Trump’s Short Fingers: A Historical Analysis. But serious-minded editorialists have done their best, dripping the sort of personal invective you rarely hear from anyone but criminal barristers and theatre critics. Even the cable comedians, who can tap a rich insult vocabulary, have had to dig in to match their rage to the Republican candidate’s bluster.
It has taken a while, but the polls show voters are taking notice. Hillary Clinton is pulling away at one end, and Gary Johnson, the Libertarian candidate, is nudging 10 per cent at the other. Mr Trump is sagging in the middle.
History shows that when a candidate is as far back as the Republican is at this point in the race, there is no coming back. But Mr Trump has rendered all precedents irrelevant. And if I were Mrs Clinton’s campaign team, I would hold off opening the celebratory champagne for a few weeks yet.
A major concern should be two names on the recently released list of Mr Trump’s economic advisers: John Paulson and Steven Mnuchin. Mr Paulson is the better known of the two men, a hedge fund manager who made an estimated $3bn-$4bn personally by betting against the US housing market in 2007. Mr Mnuchin cut his teeth at Goldman Sachs in New York before moving to Los Angeles to invest in films such as Avatar and X-Men, later picking up IndyMac Bank, a failed home lender, from the ashes of the financial crisis. He then fixed it up and sold it for a big profit as OneWest Bank.
Both men have a keen eye for value, and are ready to buy when everyone else wants to sell. They profit from extreme volatility and are not afraid of a big short. Mrs Clinton, if she were somehow to lose, would be the biggest political short of all time. She has plenty of financial titans backing her, such as Warren Buffett and George Soros. But to see Mr Paulson, architect of the most successful trade in recent Wall Street history, lining up against her can’t feel good.
Which begs the question: what path to victory do they see for Mr Trump that the rest of us don’t?
If one were to credit Mr Trump’s politics with an underlying logic — and the credit would have to be extra high-yield — it is that he is the only one listening when Americans say they are sick of the same old political routines.
Every politician in every presidential race promises to fix Washington and fight for the people against the establishment. But never has there been a wrecking ball like Mr Trump. He has shown himself to be racist, sexist, callous and crude, yet the 40 per cent or so of Americans who support him still consider him the only honest man in politics. His candidacy feeds the fantasy of those who would decimate government.
His plan to lower corporate and personal income taxes and cut regulations is in the mainstream of Republican thinking, a traditional business charter.
The promise to rewrite America’s trade agreements to boost domestic manufacturing is more radical and aimed at winning votes in the Rust Belt. But it is of little practical concern to investors, who can adjust to any economic reality with a few keystrokes.
For those who hate Mr Trump, these past few weeks since the Republican Convention have only confirmed the horror. Here is a man who belittles the Muslim parents of an American soldier who died in combat, and compares his “sacrifice” building hotels and casinos to theirs; who sends what to many people sounds like a dog whistle to gun rights supporters about assassinating his opponent. But if you were inclined to believe in Mr Trump, you might conclude that these episodes had shown how much room he still has to manoeuvre. A candidate willing to say or do anything is hard to box in and will not fight by the usual rules.
In the category of known unknowns, we have the rumoured Trump file on the Clintons. It might seem impossible that after so many years and so much scrutiny, there are still beans to spill. Yet these are the Clintons, and the Republican party candidate is not likely to let scruple get in the way of a good scandal.
This shadow only darkened with the recent talk of Russians hacking the Democratic National Committee, and Mr Trump’s suggestion that they hack Mrs Clinton’s state department emails. If there is anything embarrassing or humiliating left to discover about the Clintons, odds are he will find it and advertise it.
Lots of people have been speculating that Mr Trump doesn’t want to be president. That it sounds too much like hard work. That all he is doing in running for office is to prepare the way for Trump TV, his own network with millions of paying subscribers.
But, win or lose, he has already yanked America’s political centre to the right: a great service to those who believe in him. Until the votes are counted, Democrats should not take their eye off a candidate willing to churn the political waters so violently and revel in the volatility that brings.
#1269 Re: The Garden » 2016 Presidential Election Thread » 508 weeks ago
No no, I meant I couldn't find it before you posted the link. PPP is good.
All I have is this:
The Trump Apocalypse Watch is a subjective daily estimate, using a scale of one to four horsemen, of how likely it is that Donald Trump will be elected president, thus triggering an apocalypse in which we all die.
Donald Trump had a slow news day on Monday, which I guess is good for those of us who want to try to avoid a nuclear winter? It means he didn’t cause any more harm to his tanking campaign, but it also means he didn't undo any of the damage that weeks of verbal meltdowns have done to his presidential chances.
All things considered, the threat level remains at half a horseman.
#1270 Re: The Garden » 2016 Presidential Election Thread » 508 weeks ago
Sorry, I tried finding it. Only got up Twitter stuff.
You underestimate me. If you replace Stein and Johnson with Deez he is up by 9. 
