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#11 Re: Guns N' Roses » Tracks missing from the leaked CD's » 3 weeks ago
While I do think the list is legitimate as the "Engel & Engel" thing seems way too elaborate for a quick fake, I question why everyone assumes it's the B-List of songs. It says Exhibit B. If it's a legal document using legal language, chances are high that exhibit A is something completely different like a studio contract for instance. The heading here is subject masters - not B-List. And as much as I wish it were otherwise, just because there is a master of something, doesn't mean that there are vocals
Thats valid with fair points.
I clearly am basing on a hypothesis.
I believe those engel & engel fax documents will provide more insight to the actual plan back in 2001 and what was recorded by then.
For there to be a subject matter b masters you would imagine there's a subject a masters due to the missing songs not the subject master b list.
#12 Re: Guns N' Roses » Axl is in the Studio but what for? » 3 weeks ago
https://youtu.be/EKnGgCGihwg?si=KSSBoZlGBL_CfT5z
Axl Rose & Melissa Reese Mysteries Solved
Brasky, Wasted & FransNRoses solve the mystery of why Melissa is absent from GNR tour and why Axl was in the studio in New York.
#YoshikiHayashi #AxlRose #XJapan #MelissaReese
#GunsNRoses #fransnroses #frans #slash #duff #gnr
#13 Re: Guns N' Roses » Tracks missing from the leaked CD's » 3 weeks ago
Bill Brasky wrote:I also want to add the Village version of Hardschool was superior to reunion era version.
I'm always perplexed by this statement. There is no way in hell that the nuGNR Hardschool was the better than the Slash/Duff version
Here's why i believe that. I love village session intro it just builds until it kicks in. Axl voice in my opinion is better in the mix and production on the village session demo then the reunion era copy and paste a mania version.
Both versions seem like they needed additional lines of vocals.
But that's my opinion.
#14 Re: Guns N' Roses » Tracks missing from the leaked CD's » 3 weeks ago
You're not taking it on face value, you're warping it to fit your narrative.
As for the "document", it purports to be from Engel & Engel, that doesn't make it so. Could very easily be another fake, though I don't have a strong opinion one way or the other.
How am i not taking Axl Rose's quote on face value ? I haven't changed or tried to interpret it any other way then it's bluntly written.
Purports to be from Engel & Engel lmfao ok why would someone fake it what's the benefit ?
How many people in the gnr community would even know the Engel & Engel firm and what significance it would hold during that era for gnr ?
#15 Re: Guns N' Roses » Tracks missing from the leaked CD's » 3 weeks ago
lol that Subject B fax or whatever you wanna call it is either a) fake or b) completely irrelevant. "Dragon" isn't even a real thing and wasn't on any Village disk that Bird or Rick had.
Trying to defend anything on there makes no sense. As many have stated, a majority of the material recorded and released on CD are on that list. Also, the Axl quote from 2002 doesn't add legitimacy to that "document" either since Chinese was the lead single after all. I think that quote was referring to saving songs like Better, TWAT, Prostitute, etc and not playing them in 2002 and showing off the entire record then.
The document isn't from Rick first of all. Secondly it's a engel & engel (entertainment law firm) legal fax document.
You may know what Rick had because it leaked but you clearly don't know what Bird had or sold.
Your statement that many of the songs are on the subject B master list were on Chinese Democracy, Well yeah Skwerl leaked 9 of 14 songs on Chinese Democracy and the years prior other states of those songs and others leaked. Any song that was widely leaked made Chinese Democracy.
Onto the qoute it is in plain english with little left for interpretation made by Axl Rose. You wish to interpret any way you want to, I'll take it on face value.
#16 Re: Guns N' Roses » Tracks missing from the leaked CD's » 3 weeks ago
There is no way in hell Axl intended TWAT, The Blues, Madagascar, Prostitute & Catcher to be b sides. That's absolutely ludicrous. He mentioned TWAT & The Blues as two of his favorites in January 2006 (along with Better), he also had a video filmed for Catcher in late 2002 and was showing the song off to people in 2006. It was originally intended to be saved for another album.
There is no logic in thinking him saying the songs they debuted in 2001 weren't being considered as singles means he intended them to be b sides. Ever heard of a deep cut? Why would he use a b side throwaway to show off the band at the MTV awards in 2002?
And perhaps the most insane implication: he intended the title track to be a b side!?!
The General was the B side to Perhaps
Hardschool aka Jackie Chan a song that was started before nugnr with Slash,Duff,Matt,Tobias,Axl was the B side to Absurd aka Sillworms
Atlas a song orginally with Brian May guesting on guitar ended up as the B side to Nothin'.
I can't explain why he chose Madagascar to be played live at the vma's maybe messaging due to the song's meaning but hearing it live on tv that night and from bootlegs back in the day it's the definition of a deep cut song in my opinion
I think most of us agree Better or Prostitute were the best candidates for singles off the Chinese Democracy album. However the singles ended up being Chinese Democracy and Shacklers Revenge. Not Twat or The Blues which name was changed and butchered in production to become Street Of Dreams. Catcher In The Rye was also not a single.
So where's the logic in that ?
#17 Re: Guns N' Roses » Tracks missing from the leaked CD's » 3 weeks ago
The document image i posted which is titled Subject B Masters, I believe indicates shows the intentions for the songs to considered B sides.
Axl Rose made a statement i posted in a later post in this thread stating the songs nugnr has played live up into that point weren't considered singles ( so they were B sides) the songs played by then 2002 were Madagascar, The Blues, Riad, Silkworms, Chinese Democracy (Funny enough was the single for Chinese Democracy upon it's release)
Oh My God beings the lone exception not on the subject B master list.
Which was released as a released as a promotional single on November 2, 1999, but not as a direct single so maybe some semantics on my part but still a valid point.
None the less the subject masters B list means there is a subject masters A list
with songs such as This I Love, Hardschool, Perhaps, The General, Soul Monster, Oklahoma, Nothin, Curly Shuffle, Shacklers( if it's not Dragon) and Irs are probably on it amongst other songs ?
That's a fair statement right ?
I do not know what Axl Rose thought process is regarding picking B sides and singles. I'm going off tangible factual information from a legal fax document to form my opinion and present it here.
Obviously if Robert Bird, Levisnuts or Tom Zutaut or even Fernando wish to provide us with the Subject Master's A list this could all be cleared up quickly.
That however is rather doubtful.
I also want to add the Village version of Hardschool was superior to reunion era version. I believe most of us prefer the Andy Wallace mix and The Village Sessions versions to 2008 released version of Chinese Democracy or Reunion era releases.
The 1999 versions of the songs have always been my preference.
So remember the legal fax document titled Subject B Masters is from before Zutaut was fired December 2001 most likely November or December 2001 due to The Rebel disc being the latest dated of the Village Sessions discs leaks dated 11/15/2001 and The Rebel appears on the Subject B Masters list.
So what the songs sounded like or Axl's opinion most likely changed.
We're looking at list with 25 years of hindsight but still with limited information compared to the individuals who made that list.
So what do you think ?
#18 Re: Guns N' Roses » Tracks missing from the leaked CD's » 3 weeks ago
Struggle to see how it can be a B-list when 10 of the CD songs are on there. Unless they wanted to save the better material for a follow up. But then why are all the songs released since the reunion clearly b-material.
"There's been some concern. That if we play five or six new songs, then there can't that many more on the album. Au contraire, mon frére. We're just playing the songs we're not considering putting out as singles or anything. So, you'll get 18 songs, and about 10 extra tracks. And when that, when the record company feels that has run its course, then you'll get it all over again. By that time, I should be done with the third album. So we'll see if all goes well boys and girls." (Axl, Docklands, 08/26/02)
#19 Re: Guns N' Roses » Tracks missing from the leaked CD's » 4 weeks ago
well that bumps a lot of stuff off the previous list'
We pretty much know what this means now...
A list - finished songs
B list - Unfinished, half baked, songs/sketchesSomething getting "bumped" off the previous list just means a long simmering song is finally ready.
Fans assumed there was a mountain of material on both these lists...fans were wrong. I will never forget Merck saying there were 20 songs on the B list better than IRS.
Merck was wrong.
think that we'll go on to write some very interesting things with Richard
As we all know....this never happened.
but it's time to stop [adding new songs] now and wrap up the baby.."
In other words....time to stop tinkering on the same songs and at least release the stuff finished on the A list.
B list saved to eventually help prop up reunion tours....
This was the B list 
I really want to see what the A list was.
If you want to debate that's not the B list I'm more then happy to hear why.
It's clearly listed as subject master b
So therefore subject master a would be more important just due to the order.
It's logical to assume that's the a list is smaller then the b list.
now the individual who has that list could kindly upload it here that would much appreciated.
I'm in the camp the vault isn't empty.
#20 Re: Guns N' Roses » Axl is in the Studio but what for? » 4 weeks ago
Finck and Brain left on their own accord. I don't remember BBF being fired. Tommy seems to have bowed out gracefully when he saw himself as a roadblock to a reunion. Ashba left.
I think the reunion happened because there was not much of a band left. Richard is still there, same with Dizzy. If Frank could drop a beat likely he would be too. Izzy, Steven are being paid lip service because they proved unreliable in the past. Izzy's enthusiasm lasted about 5 minutes before he went back into hiding.
TB is the best example of Axl rewarding loyalty when it is not really deserved. Complete mediocrities dragging the band down, but they stick to him so he keeps them around. Goldstein wasn't fired, but he should have been.
So Goldstein *Retired* (fired hence his letter later to Axl) and was tricked by Merck.
Azoff kept firing Fink and Axl didn't respect that Fink, Stinson and Fortus didn't want to replace Buckethead with another guitarist, So Fink said fuck it.
Axl could've fixed it chose not too and hired a guy wearing top hat and smoking a cigarette not named Slash.
Bumblefoot got bullied by the other members of nugnr and became very depressed (just like Buckethead), He wanted to put out new music as a band not play copy and paste onto finished songs that others wrote.
Where's the second album Axl said was ready and would come out after touring a year or two for Chinese Democracy ?
That may have solved that.
Tommy was almost out in 06 with Duff ready to replace at moments notice in nyc. He saw the writing on the wall.
Also stated what a waste of fucking time it was making Chinese Democracy because it was done years before it's release.
That's on Axl. art work, music videos blah blah fucking excuses.
Tommy knew it was over after Chinese Democracy came out.
Pittman upset Axl with whole Neil Young thing, Which even Axl made a point to mock him on Jimmy Kimmel on.
Guy was with the band for 19 years and Axl can't figure out how to resolve any issues ? Sure he had substance abuse problem but are we going to pretend Axl is sober ? Duff has had relapse and recovered Pittman didn't earn that opportunity ?
Brain did the remixes and didn't get paid.
So got to be on reunion era releases as the drummer and Melissa got Pittman's gig. Iykyk situation.
Gilby got fucked.
Frank got set up. He had gigs booked and Duff and Slash wanted the band to rehearse on short notice. They complained and Duff presented Isaac as a cheaper alternative that had better chemistry with the band.
That's some loyalty (I prefer isaac to Frank) why do you think Axl is always giving Isaac shit, it's guilt over frank.
Matt pointed out Axl's nonsense with Tobias vs Slash.
That was Axl's power move against Slash that and ownership of the name.
How did that work out ?
Izzy saw Axl's ego and paranoia and his bandmates substance abuse.
Caram (The Butcher) Constanzo finaly got fired. I got nothing to say except good job firing him and release the George Marino masters !
Team Brazil are in control it's not loyalty it's dependence.
Azoff taught Axl how the music industry really works. So eventually Axl played ball for the money and lifestyle. All those rants and all those interviews about nugnr being the future and Slash being the past afd proved to be hypocrisy.
He abandoned all of the band members except Dizzy who's a yes man and Fortus.
So when you say he's loyal guy i respectfully disagree.
