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#391 Re: The Garden » Covid 19 » 317 weeks ago

bigbri wrote:
buzzsaw wrote:
Neemo wrote:

Dude ... case numbers have increased 100fold in 2 months ... think about it...unchecked this shit threathens to decimate the world population

What numbers are you looking at?  PROTECT THE AT RISK.  Anyone infected beyond that doesn't matter because less of them are dying than from the flu.

I don’t dismiss this idea out of hand because I’m incredibly concerned about not just my job but those of all my family members, but here’s a big problem with it. The at-risk groups:

46% of Americans have hypertension
42% of Americans are obese
15% of Americans are 65+
8% of Americans are 55 to 64
8% of Americans have asthma
6% of Americans have heart disease
10% of Americans have diabetes

We’re not a healthy country, unfortunately. I realize some of those groups overlap, but there’s not a lot of folks left after the at-risks are kept at home.

The risk to people with controlled conditions seems to be minimal; it's the people that don't have those conditions under control that are most at risk, but admittedly that's small sample size. 

The point isn't necessarily to be that specific since they aren't doing it anyway; the point is that it doesn't seem to have been taken seriously as even an option vs completely fucking everything up.  Don't you try the less destructive plan before destroying everything?

#392 Re: The Garden » Covid 19 » 317 weeks ago

Didn't read the whole article yet, but agree with the premise.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2 … MnIWrsj310

America’s most influential coronavirus model just revised its estimates downward. But not every model agrees.

A leading forecasting model used by the White House to chart the coronavirus pandemic predicted Monday that the United States may need fewer hospital beds, ventilators and other equipment than previously projected and that some states may reach their peak of covid-19 deaths sooner than expected.

That glimmer of potential good news came on the same day New York Gov. Andrew M. Cuomo (D) said his state may already be experiencing a “flattening of the curve.” New York reported 599 new deaths Monday, on par with Sunday’s count of 594 and down from 630 on Saturday.

By Wednesday morning, the model had been revised even more dramatically downward. It now predicts a total of 60,400 U.S. deaths by August and forecasts the peak of those deaths arriving in just four days on April 12, instead of April 16 as previously projected. Experts, however, have noted that this particular model’s numbers and projections — while used widely — have been consistently lower than those of other models.

Experts and state leaders, however, continued to steel themselves for grim weeks ahead, noting that the revised model created by the Institute for Health Metrics and Evaluation (IHME) at the University of Washington conflicts with many other models showing higher equipment shortages, deaths and projected peaks.

Some state leaders have also grown increasingly concerned about how the federal government is using IHME’s lower estimates to deny states’ increasingly desperate requests for equipment and help in preparations. The stark differences between the IHME model and dozens of others being created by states exposes the glaring lack of national models provided publicly by the White House or agencies such as the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention for local leaders to use in planning or preparation.

“It’s unclear exactly what the White House is doing on this front,” said Dylan George, who helped the Obama White House develop models to guide its Ebola response in 2014. “As a result, you have every state trying to create their own models to anticipate their needs. And you have one model like IHME being adopted as the national guide.”

The danger of relying so heavily on one model is that model could be wrong or overly optimistic.


“When you plan, you want to plan for the worst-case, not for the average or best-case,” said Natalie Dean, an assistant professor of biostatistics at University of Florida. “Because the risk is not proportional.”

Big differences
This is how starkly models can differ.

Local leaders in the District said on Friday that their model estimates the outbreak in the nation’s capital will peak June 28. The IHME model predicts the peak is coming in just days, on April 16. The District’s model predicts hospitals will need 1,453 ventilators at the peak. IHME predicts a need for only 107. The District is using the IHME model as a best-case scenario and the more dire model to prepare for a likely surge.

“While we hope that our experience will follow a curve closer to the IHME model, we cannot use a single model for our preparation and risk being underprepared. We continue to refine our models and assumptions and are tailoring them to the DC population and context,” spokeswoman Alison Reeves said in an email.


In states more populous than the District, that vast gap in planning and modeling could mean a life-or-death difference for tens of thousands of people.

LaQuandra S. Nesbitt, director of the District’s Department of Health, explained how the city’s leaders chose their model. It’s called CHIME and was created by researchers at the University of Pennsylvania.

“We felt that a model that determined the District would have essentially no medical surge needs was not indicative of what we anticipated would be our reality in the District and thought that a model that did not overestimate the impact of social distancing in the United States” was the right one, Nesbitt said.

In the two weeks since IHME’s model was originally released — the researchers announced revisions Monday — it has been criticized by some experts as overly optimistic. But even critics are quick to note that in the absence of any tool offered by the federal government and with no other model offering nationwide state-by-state estimates, IHME could be a lifesaver.


To coordinate their response, some states with few modeling resources or home-state experts have used the IHME forecast that projects peak deaths and the resources needed. The White House relied on it in part to generate its estimate last week that the epidemic would kill 100,000 to 240,000 people nationwide.

Most epidemiological models look at different populations that interact in an outbreak — people susceptible to infection, those who are infectious and those already infected who go on to die or recover.

Funded by the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation, the IHME model embraces an entirely different statistical approach, taking the trending curve of deaths from China, and “fitting” that curve to emerging death data from U.S. cities and counties to predict what might come next.

For that reason, many experts saw IHME as overly optimistic when it was launched March 26. Few U.S. states or cities are taking action as drastic as what was adopted in Wuhan, China — the birthplace of the coronavirus pandemic — or even Northern Italy in locking down residents.

Another big difference between IHME and other models is a fundamental assumption about how effective social distancing can be. The creator of IHME’s model, Christopher Murray, said many state models assume that social distancing will only slow or reduce transmission to some degree. The IHME model, drawing from the example of Wuhan, assumes policies such as social distancing and stay-at-home orders, can effectively reduce transmission to the point where an epidemic — at least in its first wave — is actually brought under control by authorities.

At the White House Coronavirus Task Force briefing Monday, health officials said they thought it was possible to have fewer deaths than have been projected by models, because of the extreme social distancing efforts being undertaken by Americans.

“Models are good, they help us to make projections. But as you get data in, you modify your model,” said Anthony S. Fauci, director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases. “I don’t accept everyday we’re going to have to have 100,000 to 200,000 deaths. I think we can really bring that down."

More models, better prediction
When it comes to predictions, statisticians have a favorite maxim: “All models are wrong, but some are useful.”


By drawing on the multiple models, experts are often able to better triangulate their predictions and assumptions. This is why weather experts often draw on several models rather than one in forecasting storms, using an “ensemble” or “suite” of models. Such ensembles are also what generate the cone of uncertainty for hurricanes.

In Illinois, state leaders are using four models — a version of the CHIME model and models from the University of Chicago, Northwestern University and the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign. New York state officials have said they are drawing on at least four different models, including IHME’s.

In North Carolina, state leaders are using a “weather forecasting” approach that combines several models — and instead of focusing on specific dates or numbers of beds or ventilators, they have decided to predict the likelihood that the medical system is overwhelmed.


“What we’ve been focusing on is less about ‘what is the exact timing of the peak?’ and ‘what is the exact height of the peak?’ and more about how likely is it that the demand for health care is going to outstrip the supply,” said Kimberly Powers, an epidemiologist at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. “Are we going to need more than we have?”

Their composite models predicts a peak in mid- to late-May. As long as social distancing continues, they predict only a 1 in 4 chance of exceeding the capacity of acute care hospital beds. But if those orders were lifted after April, the chances of overwhelming hospital capacity doubled.

One concern from some experts is that the IHME model is being used too much like a crystal ball with undue weight given to its predicted needs for ventilators and hospital beds and staffing.

Leaders in one state said Trump administration officials have used IHME’s numbers to push back and in some cases deny their requests for equipment and help. Officials in that state cited emails and documents in which federal officials highlight IHME projections as evidence the state needs thousands fewer ventilators and beds than the state’s models project. The state officials spoke on the condition of anonymity because they said they fear retaliation by the Trump administration that could result in even fewer ventilators and less federal assistance.

“If the federal government is really making these kinds of life-or-death decisions on a single model and on only on the lower end of that model, that’s scary,” said one state official.

New data
Murray said he is well aware of the criticism of his model

But in the absence of any other state-by-state planning tool, he noted in a Monday briefing with reporters, his model is providing a much-needed public service — a point even critics of the IHME model are often quick to point out.

Murray and his team have worked around-the-clock since they first released their model to feed newly emerging data and sharpen it its projections.

On Monday, they announced their biggest revisions to date — driven by a large amount of new domestic and international data.

While their original model relied only on Wuhan’s curve, the updated model now incorporates curves from seven regions from Italy and Spain where epidemics have also peaked.

The newer version also found that deaths in some states — such as Florida, Virginia, Louisiana and West Virginia — could peak earlier than previous projections. But the deaths nationally were still projected to peak April 16. The newer model suggests the number of acute care hospital beds needed at the peak could be cut almost in half and the number of ICU beds needed at the peak of the surge could drop from 40,000 to 29,000. The model also suggested the total number of deaths would be lower, with an estimated 82,000 deaths from the first wave of infection, although the number could range from 49,000 to 136,000.

Murray agreed with the critique of others that multiple models should be used.

“I could not agree more,” Murray said. “What we’ve learned from 30 years of weather forecasting, even Netflix predictions for movies … you make better predictions when using multiple models.”

#393 Re: The Garden » Covid 19 » 317 weeks ago

Axl S wrote:

Buzz, chill out. You can disagree with the approach that the majority of first world countries are taking to this and express that without doing it in such an aggro way all the time.

Major countries don't typically decide to go for the mother of all recessions (or possibly depressions) over half baked hoaxes. When faced with what information was available at the time AND factoring in all the known unknowns (and considering the potential for unknown unknowns) most countries made a decision to lock shit down. Time will tell if it was the right decision.

To be honest I am deeply worried about the havoc this virus wrecks in countries and communities that aren't capable of responding the way ours have - and then even more worried about the affect that will have long term globally.

Who is struggling with it?  Countries (and cities) with people piled on top of each other and old/at-risk people.  Everywhere else there's chaos for no reason...chaos fed by politicians and the media.  Again, how many healthy people are dying? .1% (and that's being generous)?  The herd immunity is going to do more to protect us than anything they've done now and California is sitting there as a prime example.

I haven't seen how Sweden is doing?  Any update (serious question...don't care enough to look)?  I'm predicting a spike in deaths soon because the math says that will happen...what happens after that will tell a lot.

#394 Re: The Garden » Covid 19 » 317 weeks ago

Neemo wrote:

Dude ... case numbers have increased 100fold in 2 months ... think about it...unchecked this shit threathens to decimate the world population

What numbers are you looking at?  PROTECT THE AT RISK.  Anyone infected beyond that doesn't matter because less of them are dying than from the flu.

#395 Re: The Garden » Covid 19 » 317 weeks ago

IRISH OS1R1S wrote:

That Stanford expert is one voice of thousands. Turn on any channel and everyone is saying isolation is working.

Oh and the herd immunity. If you stepped out of that bubble you live in you would know the British tried the herd option. It didn't go to well.

You do not go for herd immunity immediately, it is something that needs to be brought in gradually to avoid pressure on the health systems.

Don't know why I'm even engaging with you, you are a complete fraud and bully to match.

California says "suck it" to your little world.  Herd immunity credited for their numbers...but hey, that doesn't fit your little narrative, does it?

And if you think the Stanford guy is alone, it's you that needs to stop being a bubble boy.  There's a whole world that doesn't solely rely on biased sources for their information.

Keep trying...but you better hurry.  The numbers keep skewing more and more to my side, so the cliff you're clinging to is slipping away.

#396 Re: The Garden » Covid 19 » 317 weeks ago

Neemo wrote:

https://youtu.be/YgXcTiHkwE4

Watch this timelaspe of covid-19 cases in America...its the most recent one by this youtube channel for the usa and its 2 weeks old...but u can see how quickly america has been infected

Edit 4500 cases on march 17th...over 100k cases on March 28....as of today there are nearly 560k cases ... thats an insane growth rate

How many of those are in NY?  This is exactly what the problem is...people run off with snippets of information without understanding any context. 

Infected doesn't matter.  There are WAY more people that that infected.  Yet here we are talking about a still 1-2% death rate on the people that we know are infected (meaning those sick enough to get tested - and you have to be pretty sick to get tested).  Millions of infected people will never even be tested.  Millions.  Because they are fine.  As long as those people stay away from the at-risk crowd, people stop dying.  How do you do that?  Quarantine the at-risk, not quarantine everybody.

Keep the at-risk quarantined.  Have those responsible for the at-risk quarantined.  This is really basic stuff...not remotely complicated.  The at risk stay healthy, the rest of us are fine and far less die than will die from the flu. 

Hospitals across the country are laying off staff.  Let that sink in for a bit.  Middle of a crisis and hospitals are letting staff go.  Why?  Because the crisis isn't really a crisis and they are losing money because elective surgeries have been cancelled.  Is anyone here capable of thinking beyond a news snippet?

#397 Re: The Garden » Covid 19 » 317 weeks ago

buzzsaw wrote:

Maybe an expert from Stanford can open some eyes...probably not, but I'm going to post it anyway...you know, science!  Let me know if you find this guy's credentials unacceptable...

______________________________________________________________________________________

“If we had not known about a new virus out there, and had not checked individuals with PCR [virus] tests, the number of total deaths due to ‘influenza-like illness’ would not seem unusual this year. At most, we might have casually noted that flu this season seems to be a bit worse than average.”

This was not written by some right-wing crank claiming coronavirus is a conspiracy to deny President Trump a second term, or an excuse to bring down capitalism.

It’s from a sobering and illuminating essay by Stanford University epidemiologist John Ioannidis, co-director of its Meta-Research Innovation Center, published in the life sciences news site STAT.

The coronavirus-driven crackdowns on public life by state and local political leaders are being made in a data vacuum, Ioannidis warns, and extreme government measures to prevent infections may actually lead to more deaths.

“The current coronavirus disease, Covid-19, has been called a once-in-a-century pandemic,” he says. “But it may also be a once-in-a-century evidence fiasco,” with policymakers relying on “meaningless” statistics based on unreliable samples:

Three months after the outbreak emerged, most countries, including the U.S., lack the ability to test a large number of people and no countries have reliable data on the prevalence of the virus in a representative random sample of the general population. …

Patients who have been tested for SARS-CoV-2 [COVID-19] are disproportionately those with severe symptoms and bad outcomes. As most health systems have limited testing capacity, selection bias may even worsen in the near future.

The one situation where an entire, closed population was tested was the Diamond Princess cruise ship and its quarantine passengers. The case fatality rate there was 1.0%, but this was a largely elderly population, in which the death rate from Covid-19 is much higher.

The general ignorance of journalists when it comes to reporting scientific research is making the response worse.

Consider the complicating factors when trying to project that one cruise ship’s mortality rate “onto the age structure of the U.S. population”: It’s based on seven deaths, in a population (tourists) that “may have different frequencies of chronic diseases” than the general population.

The “reasonable estimates” for the general population range from 0.05 percent to 1 percent (the elderly tourist cruise line death rate), Ioannidis writes:

A population-wide case fatality rate of 0.05% is lower than seasonal influenza. If that is the true rate, locking down the world with potentially tremendous social and financial consequences may be totally irrational. It’s like an elephant being attacked by a house cat. Frustrated and trying to avoid the cat, the elephant accidentally jumps off a cliff and dies.

The Stanford scientist notes that “mild” coronaviruses (not COVID-19) have much higher case fatality rates when infecting “elderly people in nursing homes” (the main cluster of cases in the Seattle area), and account for up to a tenth of respiratory hospitalizations.

Ioannidis further notes the difficulty of nailing down what might have killed a person with multiple infections, citing an autopsy series of elderly victims of respiratory viruses: “A positive test for coronavirus does not mean necessarily that this virus is always primarily responsible for a patient’s demise.”

His own “mid-range guess” for the COVID-19 mortality rate – 0.3 percent of the general population – would produce 10,000 deaths, but that would not even register a blip “within the noise” of estimated deaths from “influenza-like illness.”

Without better data (and yes, the Trump administration irredeemably botched the testing), policymakers are using “prepare-for-the-worst reasoning” to impose “extreme measures of social distancing and lockdowns”:

Unfortunately, we do not know if these measures work. School closures, for example, may reduce transmission rates. But they may also backfire if children socialize anyhow, if school closure leads children to spend more time with susceptible elderly family members, if children at home disrupt their parents ability to work, and more. School closures may also diminish the chances of developing herd immunity in an age group that is spared serious disease.

The conventional wisdom to “flatten the curve” – managing the load on the health system through social distancing – could even backfire, Ioannidis writes:

Yet if the health system does become overwhelmed, the majority of the extra deaths may not be due to coronavirus but to other common diseases and conditions such as heart attacks, strokes, trauma, bleeding, and the like that are not adequately treated. If the level of the epidemic does overwhelm the health system and extreme measures have only modest effectiveness, then flattening the curve may make things worse: Instead of being overwhelmed during a short, acute phase, the health system will remain overwhelmed for a more protracted period. That’s another reason we need data about the exact level of the epidemic activity.

He warns policymakers to consider the consequences of “lockdowns of months, if not years, [where] life largely stops.”

If we’re going to risk the “financial crisis, unrest, civil strife, war, and a meltdown of the social fabric” caused by such extreme measures, “we need unbiased prevalence and incidence data for the evolving infectious load to guide decision-making.”

Many pixels have been spilled mocking the Trump administration for its indifference to rigorous science, with some criticisms more fair than others.

But Ioannidis’s analysis should be taken the most seriously by state and local leaders, who actually have the power to destroy their economies and civic life, and the scientifically ignorant media who feed them doomsday coverage.

Unless you're prepared to tell the expert from Stanford that he doesn't know what he's talking about, I suggest you stop hurling passive aggressive insults at me...I won't be passive aggressive in return.

#398 Re: The Garden » Covid 19 » 317 weeks ago

buzzsaw wrote:

From the same site:

____________________________________________________________________________________
Why are we ignoring all the contrarian scholars on COVID-19?


A few months into the coronavirus panic here in this country, and one thing is clear: People love bad news. Headlines obsessively chart each new case and each new death; medical doctors are constantly on television and in news media warning us that “the worst is yet to come,” that “the fight is just beginning,” that this is the “new normal” and that we won’t be able to resume typical social conventions “for a long time.”

You might think it’s a universal consensus that this disease is both world-ending and here to stay. Yet many scholars—a growing amount of them, more and more every day—are sounding the alarm on what they’re calling a major overreaction to this disease: epidemiologists, public health officials, preventative medicine experts, professors and numerous other academics have all been raising red flags regarding the draconian, ongoing response to the coronavirus outbreak here, namely by pointing out that lockdowns are ineffective, unwise and destructive policy that will put millions out of work while doing little to halt the spread of the disease.

Why is nobody paying attention to them? Are they less credentialed, more inexperienced, less trustworthy? None of those things are true. There are, rather, likely two elements here: In the first place, much of the media are largely invested in terrifying, scary headlines and news stories meant to shock and frighten readers with seemingly grim and dire predictions: Readers, for whatever reason, will often keep returning to news sources that scare the living daylights out of them. We’re a strange species.

Government officials, too, are very much invested in promoting doomsayer scenarios, simply because that’s what they’ve been doing all along: We’ve been told from the beginning that this is a once-in-a-century pandemic that could result in literally millions of deaths if major, disruptive, open-ended government measures are not taken to combat it. It would be humiliating, and in some cases politically suicidal, if they were to entertain the less-panicky models and projections, let alone endorse them. Better to just keep heralding the end of the world even as the data get better on a daily and sometimes hourly basis.

There are differing, dissenting opinions on this pandemic from scholars and academics who can be trusted. They’re worth listening to. Don’t be afraid to seek them out.

Read or shut up.

#399 Re: The Garden » Covid 19 » 317 weeks ago

Neemo wrote:

^no insults buzzsaw ... please and thank you

It's not an insult, it's the truth.  He has to wear the hat he's been wearing for years.  If he's going to pick one little piece of what I said while ignoring the rest of it, he's going to wear the hat.  It's his fault, not mine.

#400 Re: The Garden » Covid 19 » 317 weeks ago

Neemo wrote:

Buzz ... The whole "do whatever the fuck u want" mentality is what is making things worse...stay home unless absolutely necessary

Cases are doubling every 5 days in canada...not sure about other countries...but more than 700 folks died yesterday in NYC alone and that city has more cases than all of canada combined...u are delusional if u think this is a government hoax

Everyone is responsible for the at risk people...its called 3 degrees of separation

Nope.  Read about herd immunity and why it's important.  Thank me later.  You protect the at-risk and the people responsible for the at-risk protect themselves.  The rest of us develop the immunity to make it a non-issue.  That's how science works.

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