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Re: RRHoF Discussion (Izzy/Slash/Axl Press Statements)
a really great post from an industry insider at the Velvet Rope on the Hall issue and the name issue......
"right" or "justified" depend entirely on whose ox is being gored. Axl is entirely justified in telling the Hall how he wants to be inducted. and whether the ceremony will include him.
again, his method of doing so may sit not well with others. to a large extent, so what? I respect the guy for not bowing to what others think is "best" - and if no other reason than that many of those same people shit on lesser artists all year long.
so, for once, an artist can tell them to go to hell, do it his way, or leave him alone.
and they cant buckle him.that's a rarity, and I wish more did it. if for no other reason than that Jann has made that Hall a fucking museum of his own personal preferences, not merit. i mean, one of Axl's biggest musical influences, Alice, has to share the induction date w/ first ballot inductees from RHCP and the Beasties. - a real cornerstone of rock music corralled in with MTV drivel.
(imo, while I might lean closer to Mike D's outlooks on life than the Coop's - as artists, these are not equals.)
Originally Posted By: GoodGodyou surely must also know some of the ridiculous demands Axl has put on everyone who has worked for him, in the legal department or not, dating back to the time they exploded.
fair enough but still, one thing about that. I assure you that one of the smartest things Axl did, was to approach ill-guided acts and was clever enough to talk to bands who WISH they had acted to protect themselves before it was too late. While Slash and Duff and Steve were out doping on tour, Axl solicited insights from his elders, and then used their experiences to shape his own so he didn't go through the meat grinder and come up unprotected.
he also smelled bullshit a thousand miles away and as soon as he could, he bid those sort of people adieu. of course, in doing so, you offend people, and then reputations get besmirched, and the rationality of what one is doing is called into question. you need a thick hide to suffer that, and Axl is equipped with such a hide
Originally Posted By: GoodGodWhy should Axl be so special in this case? Can you name a precedent for this demand at any induction to date?
he is sui generis in many respects, and by not following the herd, he has pissed many off, but he also has maintained a lot of integrity in the sense of, he does he he wants, and you know that going in with him.
this is why you have no difficulty recognizing he is consistent. he does not give a shit about anything other than what works for him. and he would rather fail on his own terms than cave to the machinations of others.
I'd like about 1500 other artists like that to emerge any day now.
Originally Posted By: GoodGodAnd we know there was more than money involved in him getting the name. Every one of them involved has told the story, in books yet, except Izzy, who speaks volumes by saying little or nothing...as well as leaving at the beginning of the "Use Your Illusion" tour.
my take on that is he saw these other guys becoming weak in ways that destroy a band. many precedents for that staring them in the face, and he has and had too much pride to give away his juice, or let others water it down.
so he jumped in to protect himself. and that isn't speculation. that is exactly what he was faced with and how he chose to deal with it.
Tommy Stinson doesn't suffer many fools, and in the right moment, will tell you that Axl did what the Mats wish to have done and wanted to do - be successful enough to be left alone and pursue whatever it is that fancied them, and the day they forgot that, was the last day they had any fun as a band.
that's an important perspective often lost in these musings.
Originally Posted By: GoodGodAnyone who thinks GN'R is entering the R&R Hall of Fame based on Chinese Democracy and the current touring unit is batshit. Or sorely deluded.
that's not the question to me. the question is "has Axl rightfully earned and positioned himself so that he can dictate to others, especially when they have their own ideas of what he should be content to accept?"
my answer is, yep, he has. and that is admirable. because very few ever get there, and those in position to do so, often fail to nail it down when and while they can. then live to regret it later.
Good points! Who is this guy? Was he involved with GNR?
- killingvector
- Rep: 21
Re: RRHoF Discussion (Izzy/Slash/Axl Press Statements)
KV How do you honestly know that some form of coercion never happened?
I don't know for sure it did I dont know for sure it didn't!
Read the S&D brief from several years ago. It deals with old and new partnerships and why each existed.
Re: RRHoF Discussion (Izzy/Slash/Axl Press Statements)
buzzsaw wrote:Perception is more important than reality. The sooner you figure that out, the better off you'll be. Lack of evidence does not equal fiction...that's the mistake you're making here.
Perception is very strong, but the moment we bow down to the grumblings of the mob is the moment the earth is back at the center of the Universe and the planets rotate on epicycles. Perception is not more important than reality. Scientology operates with your level of reason; should we embrace that?
If there is no evidence that an event occurred, to assert that the event occurred is a logically incorrect statement.
The sooner you believe your rational mind, the sooner you will see that perception plays no role in finding truth.
How about this then...the REALITY is that most people's perceptions of something are more important than the reality. If you want to really understand people, you have to step away from science. People don't operate scientifically. For all the years of psychology and studying people, nobody can still explain why people do the things they do.
You want to operate in utopia; it doesn't work that way. There is a LOT of evidence that at the very least, something "shrewd" happened among people that should have been looking out for each other...and likely on both sides. You can deny it all you want, but that is the truth. When that is the truth, whoever "wins" in that situation is going to be villified. That's the way it goes. Don't want the burden? Don't do the act.
Re: RRHoF Discussion (Izzy/Slash/Axl Press Statements)
Was Axl more savvy with business and possibly got the junkies to sign something they didn't realize or no longer had the energy to fight (given they knew his previous petulant beaviour when he didn't get hs own way), maybe.
Is this illegal? Quite possibly not depending on the circumstances, Or if it was at the very least it's very hard to prove.
Was it unethical of Axl - quite possibly.
Re: RRHoF Discussion (Izzy/Slash/Axl Press Statements)
"Until every single one of [the inaccurate accounts and fallacies regarding the old lineup] has been brought out in the light, there isn't room to consider a conversation let alone a reunion."
Well, Axl,
Your truth is yours.
That is, your view of the world and the priorities you set to things, ideas and people are the sum of the stuff you've picked up along the way, and for better or for worse, those things make up your personality. Your truth has elements from all over, like everyone else's, but it's made up by yourself alone.
You know how to align yourself to it accordingly, in order to stay true. You stick to your truth, despite the heavy lifting you oftentimes have to do with it. The outside world often has a truth drowning yours.
The media has different truths outlet to outlet, reporter to reporter. The public have different truths about the lineups. The fans certainly have different truths on release schedules.
Axl, be serious. The reason your truth is not heard is because of the way we see you, a man desperately trying to remain still.
"But hey if ya gotta then maybe we can get the "no show, grandstanding, publicity stunt, disrespectful, he doesn't care about the fans" crap out of the way as quickly as we can and let's move on."
The public got what they wanted, perhaps. All the GNR drama about will they or won't they, with you yourself contributing to the ambiguity. How did you tweet on December 7th, after the nomination was publicized?
"I’d like to thank the Rock N’ Roll Hall of Fame and our fans. This is your victory."
And then you drop the bombshell a few days before the show to get a "grandstanding" for your truth. Everybody boos at you, all news reports on the event seem to feature the Man Who Wasn't There.
Myles Kennedy showed up to take your place. But no-one dared to bill the performance as "Guns N' Roses". Izzy did the right thing by not playing, and that goes in line with what the others have been doing over the years. The last time four or more AFD members were on the same stage was when Izzy came back in 1993.
You could've said no thanks for a performance the easy way, but knowing the public image of you, the media was anxious for the suspense, and you probably had a laugh at it yourself. And everybody who wanted a show seemed to enjoy the performance by Myles and the Guns alumni.
"Life doesn't owe you your own personal happy ending especially at another's, or in this case several others', expense."
You blew a hole to the reunion scheme the hard way. You paid back every harsh word about CD, the band and yourself in rose petals by stating, no, not going. The world sneers at your dream, you sneer back when asked to pull a number for them.
The biggest losers at the moment are your fans, dude. The ones who bother to wait out for you despite you being notoriously late from just about everything. The ones who share your truth about Chinese Democracy and about what GNR today is all about.
You wanted the public to move on, well, maybe RRHOF will do the trick. But if you want your fans to heed that call, you better haul ass as well. Cause frankly, your boy, DJ, is less than Gilby in the GNR legacy, as he's never played on a GNR album.
"Until [the truth is out there], there isn't room to consider a conversation let alone a reunion."
Whenever you want to start washing the dirty laundry of the old Guns publicly, I'm willing to bet we're all ears. Wait, you did that after releasing CD. It was a lot about how you felt what was necessary, a lot less about what happened from your point of view. In fact, you were so busy debunking other peoples' stories, you forgot to tell how it actually went down.
Do a song about it and you'll be heard alright.
- killingvector
- Rep: 21
Re: RRHoF Discussion (Izzy/Slash/Axl Press Statements)
Was Axl more savvy with business and possibly got the junkies to sign something they didn't realize or no longer had the energy to fight (given they knew his previous petulant beaviour when he didn't get hs own way), maybe.
Is this illegal? Quite possibly not depending on the circumstances, Or if it was at the very least it's very hard to prove.
Was it unethical of Axl - quite possibly.
If they were under the influence and Axl knew this, the contract can be ruled null and void by the courts.
Going back to the suit from several years ago, S&D never argued coercion or any defense based on their inability to negotiate contracts because of substance abuse problems.
Remember, Duff has gone to business school and understands contract & contract law very well. If there was an angle there, it would have been exploited.
Re: RRHoF Discussion (Izzy/Slash/Axl Press Statements)
Axl brought business books on tour, learned the industry, and fought hard to protect his livelihood.
Very few people realize how involved he was in not getting swindled.
So he swindled his band mates instead. How honorable...
- killingvector
- Rep: 21
Re: RRHoF Discussion (Izzy/Slash/Axl Press Statements)
killingvector wrote:buzzsaw wrote:Perception is more important than reality. The sooner you figure that out, the better off you'll be. Lack of evidence does not equal fiction...that's the mistake you're making here.
Perception is very strong, but the moment we bow down to the grumblings of the mob is the moment the earth is back at the center of the Universe and the planets rotate on epicycles. Perception is not more important than reality. Scientology operates with your level of reason; should we embrace that?
If there is no evidence that an event occurred, to assert that the event occurred is a logically incorrect statement.
The sooner you believe your rational mind, the sooner you will see that perception plays no role in finding truth.
How about this then...the REALITY is that most people's perceptions of something are more important than the reality. If you want to really understand people, you have to step away from science. People don't operate scientifically. For all the years of psychology and studying people, nobody can still explain why people do the things they do.
You want to operate in utopia; it doesn't work that way. There is a LOT of evidence that at the very least, something "shrewd" happened among people that should have been looking out for each other...and likely on both sides. You can deny it all you want, but that is the truth. When that is the truth, whoever "wins" in that situation is going to be villified. That's the way it goes. Don't want the burden? Don't do the act.
I could honestly care less about other's perceptions. I wish Axl would speak more about what happened to quell the tide of these myths.
But the writing is on the wall for anyone that wants to read it.
Re: RRHoF Discussion (Izzy/Slash/Axl Press Statements)
Aussie wrote:Was Axl more savvy with business and possibly got the junkies to sign something they didn't realize or no longer had the energy to fight (given they knew his previous petulant beaviour when he didn't get hs own way), maybe.
Is this illegal? Quite possibly not depending on the circumstances, Or if it was at the very least it's very hard to prove.
Was it unethical of Axl - quite possibly.
If they were under the influence and Axl knew this, the contract can be ruled null and void by the courts.
Going back to the suit from several years ago, S&D never argued coercion or any defense based on their inability to negotiate contracts because of substance abuse problems.
Remember, Duff has gone to business school and understands contract & contract law very well. If there was an angle there, it would have been exploited.
For someone who claims to be so based in fact, you clearly don't understand how hard it is to PROVE something to the point of it being overturned.
