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- Smoking Guns
- Rep: 330
Re: Terrorist attacks in Brussels
Smoking Guns wrote:Axl S wrote:Blame is a strong word. They are discussing the conditions that foster and drive people towards terrorism. To acknowledge that problems with integration cause these issues is blind. They are not BLAMING Belgium for the attacks, nor are the excusing the terrorists actions, but it is important to look at what social conditions foster terrorism and how we (the "West"/the developed world) as a society can counteract these.
You are the one who posted a video that asked for an open frank discussion about these issues in the other thread, can't follow that up by being "sick of excuses" and trashing liberals - which you seem to be using as a catch all word for those who don't want a knee jerk heavy handed approach.
Good points but did the San Bernadino people live in the Ghetto? I would buy that excuse if it were valid.
I think the point was that they aren't assimilating very well in European countries as they are here.
But we still have terrorists here. But they are emboldened there because they have so much support because there are so many more in concentrated areas. They have assimilated better in the US, I agree. But that may be more out of necessity.
Re: Terrorist attacks in Brussels
misterID wrote:Smoking Guns wrote:Good points but did the San Bernadino people live in the Ghetto? I would buy that excuse if it were valid.
I think the point was that they aren't assimilating very well in European countries as they are here.
But we still have terrorists here. But they are emboldened there because they have so much support because there are so many more in concentrated areas. They have assimilated better in the US, I agree. But that may be more out of necessity.
They actually do pretty well here, so it's not out of necessity.
- Smoking Guns
- Rep: 330
Re: Terrorist attacks in Brussels
Smoking Guns wrote:misterID wrote:I think the point was that they aren't assimilating very well in European countries as they are here.
But we still have terrorists here. But they are emboldened there because they have so much support because there are so many more in concentrated areas. They have assimilated better in the US, I agree. But that may be more out of necessity.
They actually do pretty well here, so it's not out of necessity.
There are so many fewer of them that they really have no choice but to assimilate more. Over there they have no pressure to when you have literally thousands of Muslims all around you.
Re: Terrorist attacks in Brussels
The scary thing is that (by far) most of these terrorists are second and third generation immigrants. Hell, a non-negligible number of these so called 'Syria fighters' are newly converted muslims from assimilated or white middle-class families.
I remember around 20 years ago, when there was a real sense of multiculturalism in Belgium and most of Western Europe. The level of religiosity amongst young muslims was low and kept going down. It really all changed after the second Gulf war. The WTC attacks were executed by muslim extremists from the middle-east, and no one would've thought it feasible that second generation muslims from the EU or the US would've participated or even condoned such a thing (no matter what lies Trump spins about seeing thousands of muslims celebrating in NJ...).
An unprecedented series of disastrous foreign policy decisions in the US and Europe literally turned all of those assimilated muslim immigrants into a sleeper army for middle-eastern terrorists. That's not an excuse, there is no excuse for the acts of barbarism these people have committed, but you have to be blind to not see how the West destroyed any chances of a peaceful multicultural society in the past decade and a half.
I'm appalled by the narrative pushed by Trump and Cruz and even certain ministers in the Belgian and French governments, under the guise of 'fighting back', 'strong responses' and 'anti-political correctness'. They are amplifying the mistakes we have made in the past instead of learning from them. This has nothing to do with political correctness, or so called 'naming the problem': the problem is extreme islamic terrorism. Everyone knows. Some might pussyfoot around the words, but that doesn't mean they don't know what the acute source of the problem is. Let's just stop this fucking posturing, and tackle the very real and very acute problem by infiltrating this community of insurgents, destroying them from within. The West should refocus its defense budget away from the military into its intelligence agencies. That's where this fight is going to be won.
- Smoking Guns
- Rep: 330
Re: Terrorist attacks in Brussels
Not really, I've seen it before. I'm not saying it's complete bullshit, but it doesn't talk about the reality of a multicultural society in Europe 15 years ago, it doesn't talk about how properly assimilated muslims became disenfranchised terrorists over the course of those 15 years.
It's a fine piece to use when people say that there's no such thing as extreme muslim terrorism, but that's not what I'm saying. I'm merely pointing out that the West has a significant responsibility in creating that sleeper army that is currently doing real damage to our way of life. And if we're not willing to look at our own mistakes, we'll never be able to solve this.
Re: Terrorist attacks in Brussels
By the way, I want to make one thing clear: I actually agree with what most right-winger are saying: the problem is their religion. I vehemently blame religion! Not just Islam though, but the very concept of people buying into the idea of a god that 'works in mysterious ways', that cannot be explained, that defies critical thinking. If you're willing to buy into the idea that the afterlife can be a wonderful place but you'll only get there if you please your god, that your god says that anyone who doesn't believe is an infidel that needs to be converted, that your religion classifies people of other religions or non-religious people as lesser people, etc... it's easy to see how they can be convinced that what they are doing is a good thing.
The point is, that line of arguing will bring us nowhere, whether it comes from a devout Christian like Cruz, or a staunch atheist like myself. People believe these things, and arguing with them, talking down to them or villainizing them doesn't solve anything. You can't convince someone who has been brought up to uncritically believe these things that they've been wrong for their entire lives. The only course of action that I can think of is to keep including everyone in the conversation, bring them into our modern society and let them find out for themselves. Religion will keep fading away if we keep developing our welfare states, including Islam, but if you single out one religion you will get them to retreat in their shells and bond together, you will make them hate those that mock and oppose them.
- Smoking Guns
- Rep: 330
Re: Terrorist attacks in Brussels
Why haven't the Mexicans turn to terrorism when they are not fully assimilated in the US? Maybe because they are not radicals Muslims....
- Smoking Guns
- Rep: 330
Re: Terrorist attacks in Brussels
The Mole, I get what you are saying but I don't know what all went down in Belgium. I just have a hard time hearing excuses when many other immigrants also had tough times but they didn't seek terror. They likely didn't seek terror because they were not radical Muslims.
Re: Terrorist attacks in Brussels
Why haven't the Mexicans turn to terrorism when they are not fully assimilated in the US? Maybe because they are not radicals Muslims....
Or because Catholics aren't villainized as much as Muslims?
Forgot that, obviously it's tied to their religion, I AGREE. We're just asking two different questions: you're thinking 'ah, evil muslims, must keep them out'. I'm thinking 'ah, indoctrinated people, how can we bring them into the modern world'. I think the second question is harder to answer, but a much better way to achieve a more peaceful world.
