You are not logged in. Please register or login.

#4671 The Garden » 9/11 Panel Study Finds That C.I.A. Withheld Tapes » 915 weeks ago

polluxlm
Replies: 2

WASHINGTON '” A review of classified documents by former members of the Sept. 11 commission shows that the panel made repeated and detailed requests to the Central Intelligence Agency in 2003 and 2004 for documents and other information about the interrogation of operatives of Al Qaeda, and were told by a top C.I.A. official that the agency had 'produced or made available for review' everything that had been requested.

The review was conducted earlier this month after the disclosure that in November 2005, the C.I.A. destroyed videotapes documenting the interrogations of two Qaeda operatives.

A seven-page memorandum prepared by Philip D. Zelikow, the panel's former executive director, concluded that 'further investigation is needed' to determine whether the C.I.A.'s withholding of the tapes from the commission violated federal law.

In interviews this week, the two chairmen of the commission, Lee H. Hamilton and Thomas H. Kean, said their reading of the report had convinced them that the agency had made a conscious decision to impede the Sept. 11 commission's inquiry.

Mr. Kean said the panel would provide the memorandum to the federal prosecutors and congressional investigators who are trying to determine whether the destruction of the tapes or withholding them from the courts and the commission was improper.

A C.I.A. spokesman said that the agency had been prepared to give the Sept. 11 commission the interrogation videotapes, but that commission staff members never specifically asked for interrogation videos.

The review by Mr. Zelikow does not assert that the commission specifically asked for videotapes, but it quotes from formal requests by the commission to the C.I.A. that sought 'documents,' 'reports' and 'information' related to the interrogations.

Mr. Kean, a Republican and a former governor of New Jersey, said of the agency's decision not to disclose the existence of the videotapes, 'I don't know whether that's illegal or not, but it's certainly wrong.' Mr. Hamilton, a former Democratic congressman from Indiana, said that the C.I.A. 'clearly obstructed' the commission's investigation.

A copy of the memorandum, dated Dec. 13, was obtained by The New York Times.

Among the statements that the memorandum suggests were misleading was an assertion made on June 29, 2004, by John E. McLaughlin, the deputy director of central intelligence, that the C.I.A. 'has taken and completed all reasonable steps necessary to find the documents in its possession, custody or control responsive' to formal requests by the commission and 'has produced or made available for review' all such documents.

Both Mr. Kean and Mr. Hamilton expressed anger after it was revealed this month that the tapes had been destroyed. However, the report by Mr. Zelikow gives them new evidence to buttress their views about the C.I.A.'s actions and is likely to put new pressure on the Bush administration over its handling of the matter. Mr. Zelikow served as counselor to Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice from 2005 to the end of 2006.

In an interview on Friday, Mr. McLaughlin said that agency officials had always been candid with the commission, and that information from the C.I.A. proved central to their work.

'We weren't playing games with them, and we weren't holding anything back,' he said. The memorandum recounts a December 2003 meeting between Mr. Kean, Mr. Hamilton and George J. Tenet, then the director of central intelligence. At the meeting, it says, Mr. Hamilton told Mr. Tenet that the C.I.A. should provide all relevant documents 'even if the commission had not specifically asked for them.'

According to the memorandum, Mr. Tenet responded by alluding to several documents that he thought would be helpful to the commission, but made no mention of existing videotapes of interrogations.

The memorandum does not draw any conclusions about whether the withholding of the videotapes was unlawful, but it notes that federal law penalizes anyone who 'knowingly and willfully' withholds or 'covers up' a 'material fact' from a federal inquiry or makes 'any materially false statement' to investigators.

Mark Mansfield, the C.I.A. spokesman, said that the agency had gone to 'great lengths' to meet the commission's requests, and that commission members had been provided with detailed information obtained from interrogations of agency detainees.

'Because it was thought the commission could ask about the tapes at some point, they were not destroyed while the commission was active,' Mr. Mansfield said.

Intelligence officials have said the tapes that were destroyed documented hundreds of hours of interrogations during 2002 of Abu Zubaydah and Abd al Rahim al-Nashiri, two Qaeda suspects who were taken into C.I.A. custody that year.

According to the memorandum from Mr. Zelikow, the commission's interest in obtaining accounts from Qaeda detainees in C.I.A. custody grew out of its attempt to reconstruct the events leading up to the Sept. 11 attacks in the United States.

Its requests for documents from the C.I.A. began in June 2003, when it first sought intelligence reports describing information obtained from prisoner interrogations, the memorandum said. It later made specific requests for documents, reports and information related to the interrogations of specific prisoners, including Abu Zubaydah and Mr. Nashiri.

In December 2003, the commission staff sought permission to interview the prisoners themselves, but was permitted instead to give questions to C.I.A. interrogators, who then posed the questions to the detainees. The commission concluded its work in June 2004, and in its final report, it praised several agencies, including the C.I.A., for their assistance.

Abbe D. Lowell, a veteran Washington lawyer who has defended clients accused of making false statements and of contempt of Congress, said the question of whether the agency had broken the law by omitting mention of the videotapes was 'pretty complex,' but said he 'wouldn't rule it out.'

Because the requests were not subpoenas issued by a court or Congress, C.I.A. officials could not be held in contempt for failing to respond fully, Mr. Lowell said. Apart from that, however, it is a crime to make a false statement "in any matter within the jurisdiction of the executive, legislative or judicial branch."

The Sept. 11 commission received its authority from both the White House and Congress.

On Friday, the leaders of the Senate Judiciary Committee sent a letter to Attorney General Michael B. Mukasey and to Mike McConnell, the director of national intelligence, asking them to preserve and produce to the committee all remaining video and audio recordings of 'enhanced interrogations' of detainees in American custody.

Signed by Senator Patrick Leahy, Democrat of Vermont, and Senator Arlen Specter, Republican of Pennsylvania, the letter asked for an extensive search of the White House, C.I.A. and other intelligence agencies to determine whether any other recordings existed of interrogation techniques 'including but not limited to waterboarding.'

Government officials have said that the videos destroyed in 2005 were the only recordings of interrogations made by C.I.A. operatives, although in September government lawyers notified a federal judge in Virginia that the agency had recently found three audio and video recordings of detainees.

Intelligence officials have said that those tapes were not made by the C.I.A., but by foreign intelligence services.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/22/washi … YeZTMp38tA

#4672 Re: The Garden » Woman on crutches accused of groping Santa » 915 weeks ago

She saw a crutch and grabbed it. Perfectly natural.

#4673 Re: The Sunset Strip » Favorite foreign films » 915 weeks ago

sic. wrote:

Italian cinema is great, too. Bertolucci, Argento, Bava, Leone... Italians have a knack for ultra-stylized horror/fantasy, low-budget exploitation scifi/cannibalism/barbarians, spaghetti westerns, and also the high-brow life-loving epics. Italian cinema is similar to their cuisine, there's something for everyone, but the ones with varied taste get the fullest plate.

Ah, thanks for reminding me. Cinema Paradiso, fantastic movie.

#4674 Re: The Garden » Time is running out-literally » 915 weeks ago

Jameslofton wrote:

Time is the main ingredient to everything. Just because mankind figured out a way to measure it so we can grasp certain things does not take away the role it plays.

I agree that its all intertwined, as you cant have anything without time itself.

The universe isn't infinite. Sure, on a scale we use it may seem infinite, but EVERYTHING has an end. So far, its really the only universal law. Whatever begins(is born) eventually ends(dies). The universe doesn't have an asterisk next to it saying 'death excluded in this case".

The only way for the universe to truly die is for time itself to die. We already know that gravity itself will eventually cease to exist as galaxies merge, separate, and the universe gets "thinner". As the universe empties and heads towards old age, things start to slow down, which obviously means time itself will slow down. I'm not even taking black holes into consideration. You add them into the mix, and everything ends even quicker(well, not quick but you know what I mean).

In a dead universe, how does time continue to exist? There is nothing propelling it forward. Without time and/or a gravitational pull, the universe is just a dead black void with whatever remnants are left frozen in place.

The astronomers have been going in circles since time immemorial. Pick up any 70/80s book on the field at the library and you'll see how little we actually know.

I agree that there are a lot of fascinating theories out there, recent ones, which probably contains a lot of truth. But often I'm left with the feeling of 'jumping the gun' when new partial discoveries are made. Cause that's all it is. Our source data for the ends of the Universe are extremely limited to say the least, and all theories constructed out of this data are questionable. If they claim the same thing in 10 years sure, but until then I'll lean towards the empirical data that says you should never assume anything in a field that is so new to us and so immense in scope.

#4675 Re: The Sunset Strip » Favorite foreign films » 915 weeks ago

Jameslofton wrote:

http://imdb.com/title/tt0235198/

When Netflix is available in your country, definitely get a subscription. You can watch tons of shit without ever having to buy the movies. Great selection of foreign movies.

I don't know about you, but after watching thousands of movies over the years I've developed a nose for quality. So in my eyes renting is a waste since you can always watch a quality film multiple times.

Besides, having a collection is something that turns me on a bit 16

Thanks for the link, I was on the verge of putting some crappy flick in the basket.

#4676 Re: The Sunset Strip » Favorite foreign films » 915 weeks ago

Jameslofton wrote:

How is Audition not on your list? Haven't watched it yet?

You need to watch Visitor Q also.

No, haven't got around to it. Think I'll just order it right away. Could you give me a link, I did a search on imbd.com but there was like 7 titles to choose from.

#4677 Re: The Garden » Japan Prepares For UFO Contact » 915 weeks ago

This is a little beside the topic, but I once did a logical argument with myself on the nature of alien civilizations, if they exist.

Let us say the stuff in the sky really are highly advanced crafts from distant systems in our galaxy. Well, that means you have at least one race out there capable of traveling vast distances. It would also mean they have the means to locate other inhabitable systems like our own. That again means they've most likely colonized other systems than their own, which will make the possibility of some sort of 'empire' or 'federation' out there probable.

So then, why haven't they colonized or attacked us? Well, it must mean that the prevailing civilization out there is peace minded. It would also explain why they're not interfering with our development (that we know of).

Still we hear reports from all over that certain elements in government are preparing for an invasion, or the establishment of a defense in case of invasion. So what's the deal?

Well, I think if there's to be disclosure on the subject of UFOs it will be in the form of an 'attack' that we must defend ourselves against (sound familiar?). Perfect excuse to unite the peoples of the world in a common front. A perfect excuse to do a lot of things under the cover of this 'emergency'. If that happens it will in my eyes be a sham. There are no hostile aliens, because if there were we'd be wiped out long ago.

Of course, the question then remains. We are now as a race in the space age. Interstellar travel might still be some years in the future, but relatively it's pretty close. So how will an alien civilization feel about having the war loving human race on the loose in the galaxy? Most likely they won't accept this, and as long as our leaders are continuing to flex muscles with their efforts to put up 'missile' defense in space and who knows what else, well, there's probably going to be a reaction.

I'm rambling here, and a lot of this is pretty far fetched, but the main point is. If they're out there, and if we continue to act in a hostile way it could mean trouble at some point. You don't go pissing off The Roman Empire if you're a small town in Gaul. Something to think about.

#4678 Re: The Garden » Japan Prepares For UFO Contact » 915 weeks ago

Jameslofton wrote:

Do they still have Ultraman??


I don't know how you can possibly be prepared for an alien invasion. Too many unknowns.

Well, that's just it. Obviously they know a bit more than we do. A lot of strange official reports on UFOs lately. Mexico says they're tired of America covering it up. Canada wants disclosure. The Russians claim all sorts of things, including a US planned base on the moon to counter attacks. UK (http://www.uk-ufo.org/condign/di55docs.html) and France are releasing their UFO files.

You ask me we're being prepared for some sort of 'event'. Hell, even Kucinich has gone out saying he's seen one up close. A lot of smoke.

#4679 Re: The Sunset Strip » Favorite foreign films » 915 weeks ago

The Godfather
Heat

tongue

Der Untergang
Sympathy For Mr. Vengeance
Oldboy
The Fabulous Amalie
Seven Samurai
Ran
Yojimbo
Das Experiment

#4680 Re: The Garden » The REAL Santa(s) » 915 weeks ago

He should get a 'Humane of the year' award.

Imagine if every rich sack did this, in general.

Just shows how little it takes and how much some kindness of heart can achieve.

Board footer

Powered by FluxBB