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#511 Re: The Garden » Current Events Thread » 298 weeks ago
What you’re speculating about isn’t known. It’s speculation. You nor the narrative you’re following have provided any evidence of a “plan”. When a law enforcement agency and not a progressive politician looking for attention make that claim and provide evidence, I’ll give it its due consideration. You’re embracing the latest conspiracy from the same outlets and actors that have deceived you repeatedly.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
How about you demand the same evidence you required of Trump sycophants calling conspiracy.
And less than 48 hours later the DoJ make public that they have substantial evidence that some of the rioters who stormed the capitol planned to kidnap and murder the VP. Further to that there is more today about the involvement of law enforcement officials and possibly members of congress, capitol police now investigating.
Just baseless speculation though.
Meanwhile Rudy accidentally tweets out a screenshot today of him texting James Sullivan (Proud Boys member and related to John Sullivan who ID just mentioned) colluding to blame "John and the 226 members of antifa". Then appears to discuss getting Kash Kelly out of trouble, who is the guy linked below. OR he's talking about Kash Patel who works in DoD, but former seems likelier.
https://www.chicagotribune.com/suburbs/ … story.html
and Rudy screenshot:
Giuliani tweeted out someone’s phone number from texts and a reference to “Kash” pic.twitter.com/aaqumQ1aGQ
— Maggie Haberman (@maggieNYT) January 15, 2021
Fuck knows what's going on there honestly but it's... suspect.
#512 Re: The Garden » Current Events Thread » 298 weeks ago
Proud boys are anti fascism too, that's why they beat the shit out of people who attack strangers for having a different opinion. Cognitive dissonance is real, and someone isn't being mean to you or talking down to you by pointing out your opinions are void of basis in reality. This is why violence happens, uneducated people support left wing violence and are shocked when the opposing side reciprocates.
They are literally a neo-fascist group.
#513 Re: The Garden » Current Events Thread » 298 weeks ago
Axl S, you keep saying black people are shot disproportionately, then never qualify it when asked. Your support and empathy of Antifa leads me to believe you haven’t made any effort to qualify your opinions, but I don’t want to assume anything. So can you cite how many unarmed black people are shot versus white, and their representation in violent crime in America?
If you can’t do this and haven’t done this, maybe you shouldn’t be so sure these groups are benign as you choose to express.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6080222/
"Victims were majority white (52%) but disproportionately black (32%) with a fatality rate 2.8 times higher among blacks than whites. Most victims were reported to be armed (83%); however, black victims were more likely to be unarmed (14.8%) than white (9.4%) or Hispanic (5.8%) victims."
This shit is borne out in the stats. I don't see how it's controversial to state this.
As for your last point about higher representation in violent crime. Typically violent crime is committed by poorer or working class people. If there is a disproportionate amount of black people in that poor/working class bracket then in the stats there is going to be a greater proportion of violent crime.
I didn't say these movements were benign either. But just labelling them as either marxist/socialist/communist and saying that equals bad just seems dumb to me.
Regardless they aren't even viewed as the biggest threat to the US. Far right, white supremacist terrorism and activism is. US federal agencies back me up on that point.
#514 Re: The Garden » Current Events Thread » 298 weeks ago
Antifa is NOT anti facism, it's anti capitalism, their tenets are pro leftist dictatorship. They can call themselves the party of hugs, lollipops and peace, but it means dick compared to what they stand for.
I mean they are anti-fascism, anti-racism and typically also feminist and just generally socially progressive. They are also largely anti-capitalist... so what?! Having an issue with capitalism isn't necessarily bad. I don't think they describe themselves as hugs and lollipops either.
I'm not really a huge fan of how they go about what they do. The headline principle of theirs - opposing fascism - is one I, and most sensible people, support. But I've said this way way way back in this thread or the old thread - if we're going to discuss these groups lets discuss them as what they are, not as they're described by right wing talking points.
#515 Re: The Garden » Current Events Thread » 298 weeks ago
Axl S wrote:slashsfro wrote:Some of the q stuff is sooo insane that you have to be an idiot to believe in it. It's the far both left and right that's the worst thing in the USA. The left has the BLM stuff. It's more reality based but there's a certain intensity and hate that I find frightening.
What about BLM is hateful? The core tenet of what is espoused by that movement is the opposite. There are some activists who are morons and too aggressive - those people who mobbed round outdoor diners because they wouldn't raise their fists come to mind - and a mixed bag of protestors who chose to use vandalism + those who are just opportunists using it as an excuse to be violent. But at the end of the day I can't see how the actual stance that Black Lives Matter can be viewed as a bad thing. It's why I think the comparisons between them this past week are just flat out wrong.
Same to a lesser extent with the Antifa movement. At its core - being anti fascism is a good a thing. Issue really is how some who say they are part of that movement choose to protest + again those who don't actually care but use any disruption as an excuse to loot and riot.
The Q stuff has no basis in reality and neither does this Stop the Steal stuff. It's apples and oranges and shouldn't be compared.
One is a discussion about how two movements with good aims should operate. The other is frankly a bunch of conspiracy nuts who have started making it their aim to overthrow the results of a legitimate democratic election. These aren't comparable.
The only thing worth comparing between the two is the police and national guard response to a protest movement for racial equality and the response they had to a violent invasion of the US Capitol.
BLM prices itself on not being g a singular organization, basically all the group's around the country have their own ideology, which is off the charts nuts, like their demands are literally ending the United States completely. Even the founders of BLM openly call themselves communists and have strong ties to Venezuela and the Nation of Islam.
Well it's not really an organisation. It's a political movement with different groups who ascribe to it/promote it. As far as what some of them have said are their stated goals, it does not seem that everyone who supports them wants all those things. Most just want black folk not to get shot by cops at the same proportional rate that white folk aren't. If members describe themselves as marxist or communist though... so what? It's a political ideology or philosophy, just debate it. Don't denounce someone just because they describe themselves as that.
I see the word "socialist" thrown around in US political chatter as a bad word by loads... but the US has Social Security and Medicare and also implemented the New Deal. The US has for almost 90 years now embraced and implemented some socialist policies. I just don't get why these political labels are thrown around as negative things to be feared rather than just things to debate.
#516 Re: The Garden » The Wrestling thread » 298 weeks ago
Axl S wrote:mitchejw wrote:That’s not entirely true...pat Patterson is my evidence of this...
He never told people exactly what to do...but he provided key points and allowed the performers to fill in the holes.
That's telling people what to do. Jesus Christ.
If he told wrestler A: "during your promo you need to challenge wrestler B to a cage match at the next ppv". That's telling him what to do.
If he told wrestler A: "during your match you're going to stay down for the 3 count but get your foot on the rope, the ref will count it and accidentally give the victory to wrestler B. this will setup a bigger match between you two later". That's telling them what to do.
The wrestlers were never told to freewheel absolutely everything. Otherwise you'd have a show with no consistency.
As i stated before, i believe the level of micro management has increased to unhelpful levels and there’s more of it now than there ever was before.
There is zero room for in individual wrestlers creativity. Do you think Roddy piper needed a script written for him? They all do now. Every one of them reads from a script.
I’m not saying it was ever a free-for-all. I’m saying that wrestlers came to the WWF with prerequisites already in their skill sets. The ones they have now that they created for themselves are basically puppets with strings attached and someone opening and closing their mouth from the inside.
Mitch I think we are just agreeing about the same thing. I have agreed earlier that there is too much micromanagement and too many cooks in the booking kitchen.
I agree scripted promos are dogshit. Still, there was always an agent there to tell them what beats or points a wrestler had to hit upon when doing a promo. I actually think a lot of them don't need scripts but most of them don't have the clout to go off script. Those who do have clout usually have enough clout to help rewrite the promo that was written for them but they still need to clear what they say before they go out live. Did you ever see any of the leaked RAW scripts from recent years? The micromangement is insane.
On the one hand I get why. They are a publicly traded company and pre pandemic were doing two live shows a week. Vince doesn't want to risk one of them shooting from the hip and saying the wrong thing. On the other hand though, it has killed the creativity. The best promos from the past few years of WWE have been the rare few where some improv has actually happened.
Agreed about matches these days. It's so frustrating because in terms of technical ring talent, there has never been a more talented generation. But the storylines to make you care about the matches is not there and for some talents the psychology is not there.
That said if the storytelling is dogshit and the matches mean nothing what does your remaining audience want to see. Randy Orton plod through a boring WWE style match with rest holds and sensible psychology or some crazy spots and fast high flying moves. If it all means nothing and before and after the bell is dull as dish water then I guess the crazy stuff is at least a bit more interesting.
I think everyone here agrees. They need to go back to basics. Write interesting storylines and let the wrestlers actually be characters. The cool crazy shit some new performers can do is cool, but they need to limit that shit to once per match and actually also do some psychology. Do the cool crazy shit but target a limb etc. Make matches make sense.
On the AEW end... they need some structure and they need to not let four of their key performers be the bookers. Cody, Kenny and The Bucks both performing but also being directly involved in booking is a mess. Let folk who have run two hour weekly wrestling TV run the booking and production of the show.
And take Jericho off TV and tell him to hire a personal trainer and get in respectable shape. He doesn't need to look jacked or anything how he did 20 years ago. But if he's going to booked how he currently is he still needs to look like realistic athletic threat. If he isn't going to do that then book him as an out of shape over the hill legend who's going for one last dance.
#517 Re: The Garden » Current Events Thread » 298 weeks ago
monkeychow wrote:James wrote:To anyone here who doesn't know much about the Q cult, check this out....
One of my high school friends seems to have got into this stuff.
The stuff he is saying most of the year was so crazy that to me it was almost like a parody of a conspiracy theory. Like at first I thought he was making fun of the hyper-partisanship around us by taking on a character or something for laughs, but then I realised he was dead serious.
I tried to mildly engage to debate the likelihood of some of it early on but he pretty much said if I continue we can't be friends.
Due to lockdowns haven't seen him in person anyway, so I just try and direct online conversations away from it. But it does worry me.
Some of the q stuff is sooo insane that you have to be an idiot to believe in it. It's the far both left and right that's the worst thing in the USA. The left has the BLM stuff. It's more reality based but there's a certain intensity and hate that I find frightening.
What about BLM is hateful? The core tenet of what is espoused by that movement is the opposite. There are some activists who are morons and too aggressive - those people who mobbed round outdoor diners because they wouldn't raise their fists come to mind - and a mixed bag of protestors who chose to use vandalism + those who are just opportunists using it as an excuse to be violent. But at the end of the day I can't see how the actual stance that Black Lives Matter can be viewed as a bad thing. It's why I think the comparisons between them this past week are just flat out wrong.
Same to a lesser extent with the Antifa movement. At its core - being anti fascism is a good a thing. Issue really is how some who say they are part of that movement choose to protest + again those who don't actually care but use any disruption as an excuse to loot and riot.
The Q stuff has no basis in reality and neither does this Stop the Steal stuff. It's apples and oranges and shouldn't be compared.
One is a discussion about how two movements with good aims should operate. The other is frankly a bunch of conspiracy nuts who have started making it their aim to overthrow the results of a legitimate democratic election. These aren't comparable.
The only thing worth comparing between the two is the police and national guard response to a protest movement for racial equality and the response they had to a violent invasion of the US Capitol.
#518 Re: The Garden » The Wrestling thread » 298 weeks ago
Axl S wrote:We know the difference between a booker and a writer mitch. A booker still writes a storyline outline and plans out where they want the story to go. They then give the wrestlers notes on things they need to mention when they do any promos and any angles that need to be incorporated into their matches. They also as James mentioned sometimes need to drop angles or change course due to outside circumstances.
That’s not entirely true...pat Patterson is my evidence of this...
He never told people exactly what to do...but he provided key points and allowed the performers to fill in the holes.
That's telling people what to do. Jesus Christ.
If he told wrestler A: "during your promo you need to challenge wrestler B to a cage match at the next ppv". That's telling him what to do.
If he told wrestler A: "during your match you're going to stay down for the 3 count but get your foot on the rope, the ref will count it and accidentally give the victory to wrestler B. this will setup a bigger match between you two later". That's telling them what to do.
The wrestlers were never told to freewheel absolutely everything. Otherwise you'd have a show with no consistency.
#519 Re: The Garden » The Wrestling thread » 298 weeks ago
We know the difference between a booker and a writer mitch. A booker still writes a storyline outline and plans out where they want the story to go. They then give the wrestlers notes on things they need to mention when they do any promos and any angles that need to be incorporated into their matches. They also as James mentioned sometimes need to drop angles or change course due to outside circumstances.
#520 Re: The Garden » The Wrestling thread » 298 weeks ago
Where I agree is that it's become a tv show with failed screenwriters and writers from reality shows who don't know anything about wrestling. It's just as big of a problem for Cody Rhodes to be running creative as it is Vince.
Yup. Basically this.
My big issue with AEW is it all feels for lack of a better word "memey". It feels like pretend wrestling. Obviously we all know wrestling is pretend but it feels like a bunch of guys playing at running a promotion rather than running one.
