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TheMole
 Rep: 74 

Re: US Politics Thread

TheMole wrote:
misterID wrote:

It's not bullshit. One is over tax fraud. The other was a coward who wanted out of the army because he hated his fellow "redneck" troops and was planning on a way to get kicked out of the military and CHOSE treason, which he should have gotten the death penalty for. But he put on a dress and is suddenly a hero.

Do you really not see that you're comparing apples to oranges? Let me reiterate: I'm not saying I support Manning, I'm saying that it's perfectly valid to support the conversion of Manning's sentence and oppose Trump pardoning Manafort. Let me help you out with some arguments that people might come up with:
1. We should hold the president's inner circle to a higher standard than some random gender fluid soldier.
2. Manning felt she was doing the right thing, if you buy into her whistleblower argument it could also make sense to support the commutation of her sentence. Manafort on the other hand was simply trying to enrich himself and his cohorts, there is no similar "he felt he was doing the right thing" argument to make.
3. Manning's sentence for the crimes that she was actually convicted for (which does not include "aiding the enemy", the judge never found her guilty of that) is considered harsh by some compared to other whistleblower convictions. Commuting the sentence to something more in line with what some would consider fair can therefore be a valid argument.
4. Manning spent 7 years in prison after her sentence was commuted, she could've gotten out after 12 years on good behavior otherwise. One could argue that this is not that big of a difference.
etc...

misterID wrote:

It's not intellectually dishonest as it's like giving someone with drug possession a pardon and pardoning a terrorist who not only celebrated the destruction they created but has shown no remorse for it. You can be fine with giving one a pardon and not the other, but context matters, and is revealing. Don't be hysterical over pardons and sentence commuting now when you were fine with it before.

It's a false equivalency, period. Yes, context matters, that's why your original comment was complete bullshit: you ignored any and all context and details of the cases in question.

I'm curious though, what arguments do you see in favor of pardoning Manafort? Can you come up with something better than "but what about Manning?"

misterID
 Rep: 453 

Re: US Politics Thread

misterID wrote:

If someone is screaming outrage about pardons, meaning the pardon of a tax fraud, but okay or silent when a traitor, who we have no idea how many lives he was responsible for killing, has never repented but actually doubled down, for no other reason than he hated the army and wanted out, and you see nothing wrong with a president commuting his sentence, don't start arguing against a president commuting someone committing tax fraud. Manning is a traitor and should have gotten the death penalty, he's not a whistleblower. He wanted out of the army and was actively looking to get kicked out and decided on treason. Manafort committed fraud.

It's not bullshit, or apples and oranges, it's hypocrisy. You can feel anyway you want.

It's not anything about "what about Manning." This is the issue: A president is within his right to pardon anyone be wants. That's the point. Trump pardoning this asshat is his prerogative. The people who are suddenly outraged about it now had no issue before when a much worse sentence commute was used for someone THEY supported.

Smoking Guns
 Rep: 327 

Re: US Politics Thread

Smoking Guns wrote:
TheMole wrote:
misterID wrote:

It's not bullshit. One is over tax fraud. The other was a coward who wanted out of the army because he hated his fellow "redneck" troops and was planning on a way to get kicked out of the military and CHOSE treason, which he should have gotten the death penalty for. But he put on a dress and is suddenly a hero.

Do you really not see that you're comparing apples to oranges? Let me reiterate: I'm not saying I support Manning, I'm saying that it's perfectly valid to support the conversion of Manning's sentence and oppose Trump pardoning Manafort. Let me help you out with some arguments that people might come up with:
1. We should hold the president's inner circle to a higher standard than some random gender fluid soldier.
2. Manning felt she was doing the right thing, if you buy into her whistleblower argument it could also make sense to support the commutation of her sentence. Manafort on the other hand was simply trying to enrich himself and his cohorts, there is no similar "he felt he was doing the right thing" argument to make.
3. Manning's sentence for the crimes that she was actually convicted for (which does not include "aiding the enemy", the judge never found her guilty of that) is considered harsh by some compared to other whistleblower convictions. Commuting the sentence to something more in line with what some would consider fair can therefore be a valid argument.
4. Manning spent 7 years in prison after her sentence was commuted, she could've gotten out after 12 years on good behavior otherwise. One could argue that this is not that big of a difference.
etc...

misterID wrote:

It's not intellectually dishonest as it's like giving someone with drug possession a pardon and pardoning a terrorist who not only celebrated the destruction they created but has shown no remorse for it. You can be fine with giving one a pardon and not the other, but context matters, and is revealing. Don't be hysterical over pardons and sentence commuting now when you were fine with it before.

It's a false equivalency, period. Yes, context matters, that's why your original comment was complete bullshit: you ignored any and all context and details of the cases in question.

I'm curious though, what arguments do you see in favor of pardoning Manafort? Can you come up with something better than "but what about Manning?"

I am not for pardoning anyone really unless there is merit for it (like the lady trump commuted over drug charges)...

The same standards should be held for everyone. When Hilary, Comey, Clapper, etc lie under oath nobody cares. When Michael Flynn supposedly does the full weight of the justice department comes down on him like a ton of bricks. This is why Trump should never speak with Mueller. Let Robert Swan Mueller gather all his evidence and present to the Justice Department that Trump committed a crime. Clinton should not have been impeached and from what we have seen so far, neither should Trump.

The ONLY reason Manafort was even investigated was to get something on Trump. Apparently the FBI knew of all his crimes for decades and only now decided to do anything. He would have never been investigated if it wasn’t for him working with Trump for 100 days.

When Trump won all the libs said world war 3 was about to happen and the economy would tank. Now they are hoping to impeach him over some collusion or obstruction of justice. Turn on MSNBC and it is still all Russia and all obstruction 24-7. There are news stories to cover. It is 95% Russia and 5% separated families.

Trumps biggest negative so far is him not allowing current illegals to get a tax id and start paying taxes and sealing the border.

As far as this investigation goes, most of America simply doesn’t care. They really don’t. Only liberal media even talks of it.

mitchejw
 Rep: 109 

Re: US Politics Thread

mitchejw wrote:
Smoking Guns wrote:
TheMole wrote:
misterID wrote:

It's not bullshit. One is over tax fraud. The other was a coward who wanted out of the army because he hated his fellow "redneck" troops and was planning on a way to get kicked out of the military and CHOSE treason, which he should have gotten the death penalty for. But he put on a dress and is suddenly a hero.

Do you really not see that you're comparing apples to oranges? Let me reiterate: I'm not saying I support Manning, I'm saying that it's perfectly valid to support the conversion of Manning's sentence and oppose Trump pardoning Manafort. Let me help you out with some arguments that people might come up with:
1. We should hold the president's inner circle to a higher standard than some random gender fluid soldier.
2. Manning felt she was doing the right thing, if you buy into her whistleblower argument it could also make sense to support the commutation of her sentence. Manafort on the other hand was simply trying to enrich himself and his cohorts, there is no similar "he felt he was doing the right thing" argument to make.
3. Manning's sentence for the crimes that she was actually convicted for (which does not include "aiding the enemy", the judge never found her guilty of that) is considered harsh by some compared to other whistleblower convictions. Commuting the sentence to something more in line with what some would consider fair can therefore be a valid argument.
4. Manning spent 7 years in prison after her sentence was commuted, she could've gotten out after 12 years on good behavior otherwise. One could argue that this is not that big of a difference.
etc...

misterID wrote:

It's not intellectually dishonest as it's like giving someone with drug possession a pardon and pardoning a terrorist who not only celebrated the destruction they created but has shown no remorse for it. You can be fine with giving one a pardon and not the other, but context matters, and is revealing. Don't be hysterical over pardons and sentence commuting now when you were fine with it before.

It's a false equivalency, period. Yes, context matters, that's why your original comment was complete bullshit: you ignored any and all context and details of the cases in question.

I'm curious though, what arguments do you see in favor of pardoning Manafort? Can you come up with something better than "but what about Manning?"

I am not for pardoning anyone really unless there is merit for it (like the lady trump commuted over drug charges)...

The same standards should be held for everyone. When Hilary, Comey, Clapper, etc lie under oath nobody cares. When Michael Flynn supposedly does the full weight of the justice department comes down on him like a ton of bricks. This is why Trump should never speak with Mueller. Let Robert Swan Mueller gather all his evidence and present to the Justice Department that Trump committed a crime. Clinton should not have been impeached and from what we have seen so far, neither should Trump.

The ONLY reason Manafort was even investigated was to get something on Trump. Apparently the FBI knew of all his crimes for decades and only now decided to do anything. He would have never been investigated if it wasn’t for him working with Trump for 100 days.

When Trump won all the libs said world war 3 was about to happen and the economy would tank. Now they are hoping to impeach him over some collusion or obstruction of justice. Turn on MSNBC and it is still all Russia and all obstruction 24-7. There are news stories to cover. It is 95% Russia and 5% separated families.

Trumps biggest negative so far is him not allowing current illegals to get a tax id and start paying taxes and sealing the border.

As far as this investigation goes, most of America simply doesn’t care. They really don’t. Only liberal media even talks of it.

The liberal media are the only ones that care?!

Hilarious dude....stick your head black in the sand.

mitchejw
 Rep: 109 

Re: US Politics Thread

mitchejw wrote:
misterID wrote:

If someone is screaming outrage about pardons, meaning the pardon of a tax fraud, but okay or silent when a traitor, who we have no idea how many lives he was responsible for killing, has never repented but actually doubled down, for no other reason than he hated the army and wanted out, and you see nothing wrong with a president commuting his sentence, don't start arguing against a president commuting someone committing tax fraud. Manning is a traitor and should have gotten the death penalty, he's not a whistleblower. He wanted out of the army and was actively looking to get kicked out and decided on treason. Manafort committed fraud.

It's not bullshit, or apples and oranges, it's hypocrisy. You can feel anyway you want.

It's not anything about "what about Manning." This is the issue: A president is within his right to pardon anyone be wants. That's the point. Trump pardoning this asshat is his prerogative. The people who are suddenly outraged about it now had no issue before when a much worse sentence commute was used for someone THEY supported.

NVM ID...at some point you jumped the shark here and i must’ve missed it.

You have no point.

misterID
 Rep: 453 

Re: US Politics Thread

misterID wrote:

My President made a controversial pardon: it's well within his right.

Your President made a controversial pardon:  OUTRAAAAAAGE!!!! HITLER!NAZI!STALIN!!!!

Smoking Guns
 Rep: 327 

Re: US Politics Thread

Smoking Guns wrote:
mitchejw wrote:

McCain dead at 81.

MAGA

RIP to a good man. Why do you have zero class. I feel for his family. Losing a parent is very hard.

CSS 2.0
 Rep: 35 

Re: US Politics Thread

CSS 2.0 wrote:

If you’re going to disagree with TheMole’s statement at least adhere to the specific questions presented rather than resorting to whataboutism. You haven’t properly adressed any of them as of yet - thus proving his point.

Also... ”Liberal media”? Fucking spare me. It’s been covered and condemned across the board (unless the likes of Drudge Report are considered liberal now) and people do care. Quite a bit.

misterID
 Rep: 453 

Re: US Politics Thread

misterID wrote:
CSS 2.0 wrote:

If you’re going to disagree with TheMole’s statement at least adhere to the specific questions presented rather than resorting to whataboutism. You haven’t properly adressed any of them as of yet - thus proving his point.

Also... ”Liberal media”? Fucking spare me. It’s been covered and condemned across the board (unless the likes of Drudge Report are considered liberal now) and people do care. Quite a bit.

How can I resort to "whataboutism" (the new thing, apparently, used when convenient) when my argument from the start was comparing two instances of pardoning? I didn't say you can't feel a certain way, I'm saying your feelings are bullshit. The fact is, the president can pardon who he wants and crying about it now, over a nothing case but saying nothing before about a serious case, kind of turns your argument to shit -- mainly the talking heads who have found their new outrage, which is who I was talking about

CSS 2.0
 Rep: 35 

Re: US Politics Thread

CSS 2.0 wrote:



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