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monkeychow
 Rep: 634 

Re: Izzy: "Sometimes things don't work out"

monkeychow wrote:

I think they've blown their load now with a reunion.

Maybe in the future they could do some sort of novelty show with the AFD5 but I don't think they'd get a lot of additional interest from the press if they themed the entire tour around it - the press already wrote all their "the sky is falling GNR is back together" articles. The return now of Izzy or Adler would be like additional line in the press release about a new tour in general...but the big payday was Axl and Slash side by side.

Only hardcores really care about the rhythm guitarist, and a LOT of the casual fans got on board around the UYI era. Sure AFD is the biggest record - but UYI had a lot of the crossover mainstream not just hard rocker songs that got a wider audience - NR, KOHD, Don't Cry...those kinda fans...to a lot of those people Izzy isn't even missing because on their picture disc was a photo of gilby, and he's the guy they saw on the tour anyway.

This NITL tour is really capturing the memories of the UYI tour....and izzy was only around for some of that. I'm not saying he wasn't important to the band...but I'm not sure the general public outside of us hardcores really appreciates that kinda importance.

Likewise to me the biggest thing they could do to improve the band sound and chemistry right now would be to bring in Matt, and perhaps have steven guest a song or two every show just out of respect, but they won't do it - it's not really the AFD or UYI line up but the media (and most of us) gives them a pass and calls it the reunion anyway - because only musicians are going to care about the drummer, and only purists care about the rhythm guitar. This band is about the vocals and lead guitar - always has been really...that's how they got away with it in 1993 and it's how they get away with it today.

buzzsaw
 Rep: 426 

Re: Izzy: "Sometimes things don't work out"

buzzsaw wrote:

Matt replacing Frank would be the right move, but I don't see it ever happening.  I don't think Axl wants the balance of power shifting that much even if he does own the name.

Rimov
 Rep: 10 

Re: Izzy: "Sometimes things don't work out"

Rimov wrote:
monkeychow wrote:

I... only musicians are going to care about the drummer, and only purists care about the rhythm guitar. This band is about the vocals and lead guitar - always has been really...that's how they got away with it in 1993 and it's how they get away with it today.

Yes, correct. Just was at Hollywood  Vampires gig. Only Alice Cooper and Joe Perry are promoted except of Johnny Depp. Others just announced by Alice in the end. It was not so easy to know who was that amasing bassist, keyboardist, third guitar player and drummer

elevendayempire
 Rep: 84 

Re: Izzy: "Sometimes things don't work out"

monkeychow wrote:

...it's not really the AFD or UYI line up but the media (and most of us) gives them a pass and calls it the reunion anyway - because only musicians are going to care about the drummer, and only purists care about the rhythm guitar. This band is about the vocals and lead guitar - always has been really...that's how they got away with it in 1993 and it's how they get away with it today.

Nail on head. The problem Izzy has is that both he and Adler left/were booted during the period of band's peak mainstream popularity. So the general public is already cued up to accept "Axl, Slash and Duff plus some other guys" as bona fide GN'R, as they were in '92/'93.

Plus generally speaking bands can get away with swapping out the bassist and the drummer (except in some very specific circumstances where the bassist/drummers' sound is super distinctive and integral to the band's sound, like Flea or Jimmy Chamberlin) as long as the lead guitarist and frontman are there. Oasis swapped out every member bar the Gallagher brothers, but when Noel left, Liam felt obliged to rename the band.

mitchejw
 Rep: 109 

Re: Izzy: "Sometimes things don't work out"

mitchejw wrote:
elevendayempire wrote:
monkeychow wrote:

...it's not really the AFD or UYI line up but the media (and most of us) gives them a pass and calls it the reunion anyway - because only musicians are going to care about the drummer, and only purists care about the rhythm guitar. This band is about the vocals and lead guitar - always has been really...that's how they got away with it in 1993 and it's how they get away with it today.

Nail on head. The problem Izzy has is that both he and Adler left/were booted during the period of band's peak mainstream popularity. So the general public is already cued up to accept "Axl, Slash and Duff plus some other guys" as bona fide GN'R, as they were in '92/'93.

Plus generally speaking bands can get away with swapping out the bassist and the drummer (except in some very specific circumstances where the bassist/drummers' sound is super distinctive and integral to the band's sound, like Flea or Jimmy Chamberlin) as long as the lead guitarist and frontman are there. Oasis swapped out every member bar the Gallagher brothers, but when Noel left, Liam felt obliged to rename the band.

If that were completely true Axl and Slash would have been much more successful with their solo projects....

They squandered 20 plus years thinking the others didn't matter...neither monetarily or musically...

Maybe I'm just stuck in the past...but I really yearn for the days of an actual band....any band. Actual musicians are interchangeable parts for the face...that makes it hard for me to feel like it's the music industry anymore. The day it stopped being about music in favor of sex, or synchronized dancing or whatever the fuck...that's the day it stopped being the music industry.

monkeychow
 Rep: 634 

Re: Izzy: "Sometimes things don't work out"

monkeychow wrote:
mitchejw wrote:

If that were completely true Axl and Slash would have been much more successful with their solo projects....

I think the solo projects kinda prove the point....

2012 GNR were reduced to playing theatres in the USA and doing retirement style Vegas residencies. Duff cameoed a few times with the slashless lineups and outside of a bit of "wow it was duff" music press it didn't do anything for the overall success. Add Slash back and it's an international event that runs for multiple years playing stadiums.

Axl was one of the greatest singers of all time, which bought him a lot of credit with the public, in fact it bought him so much credit that was able to actively sabotage his own career and survive. He seems to see himself as the victim of the media - but if you think about it - he was given a lot of leeway by his fans: He spent more than a decade in total isolation, he's been mostly a recluse since 1993 or so, he actively refuses to participate in most media, he took control of the band and drove out or fired the entire rest of the famous line up, has released only something like 15 songs in 30 years or whatever it is now, changed his image and that of the band to something wildly different from what made him famous, publicly bashed the old sound and old lineups, cancelled tours, actively pursued fundamentally changing the musical directon of the act and sang in a different voices from what he was famous for.

Who else could get away with that for as long? But the public gave him 30 years of "maybe this will come good" and was only getting tired of it around 2014....then as soon as he is back with Slash...all is forgiven....because what they wanted all along is that Axl/Slash combo.

Likewise it's no surprise that Slash's most successful non-GNR project was VR - where he was pitted with another well known temperamental front man in Scott. It didn't play out that well as although fun they didn't have the chemistry of a Slash/Axl combo. Slash is also able to do well with Myles who is capable of covering the GNR stuff....but again....they play smaller venues....and no one cared that slash had been doing nightrain nightly with myles for 6 years....as soon as he did it again with Axl it's mainstream news.

The band is all about Axl and Slash. The others played a roll in writing and the sound and us hardcores appreciate that - but the general public only cares about Axl and Slash. I honestly think you could put Axl and Slash in with 3 or 4 of us and the press would accept it as GNR.

I mean in a way they kinda have...who is melissa? A random session musician with a jpop image and background in non-traditional GNR sounds like computers and remixing - and with absolutely no historical connection to GNR and no performance on any released GNR track...yet she's up there as a valid part of the NITL line up and tour and accepted by the press as part of GNR and part of the GNR reunion....cos Axl and Slash said she was. That's all it took.

elevendayempire
 Rep: 84 

Re: Izzy: "Sometimes things don't work out"

mitchejw wrote:

If that were completely true Axl and Slash would have been much more successful with their solo projects....

The point was that for most people, a band consists of a key partnership between two members – as long as the partnership survives, they can keep trading on the band name. Fans will grumble about the other members of the band and argue the toss over who matters most to the line-up and complain that the rhythm guitarist wrote all the good songs, but for the general public, as long as Slash and Axl are there, it's Guns N' Roses. As long as Mick and Keef are there it's the Stones; the Gallagher brothers, Oasis; Daltrey and Townsend, the Who. Hell, even the Beatles at the height of their fame toured Australia without Ringo.

The instant a band loses one of the two key members (usually the singer and the lead guitarist), they face an absolute shitstorm of bad PR if they try to continue: see Queen. Fans like to shriek that John Deacon has boycotted their recent revivals of the band because of his "integrity", but I fucking guarantee that if Deacy had dropped dead in '91 and Freddie was still with us, they wouldn't have batted an eyelid.

A Private Eye
 Rep: 76 

Re: Izzy: "Sometimes things don't work out"

I think if you have a core two, like most bands they become the members people identify as ‘the band’. To anyone other than hardcores everyone else is largely interchangeable. Most major rock acts have had at least one lineup change over the years and the public barely blinks.

I think you can sometimes get away with losing one of the key two providing the rest of the band remains to provide stability to the lineup. It might not be the same but over time it is recoverable. See Ac/Dc although it helps if your next album with the replacement member is killer.

I’ve sometimes wondered how GNR goes over if only Slash left from the end of the UYI tour. If Axl patches things up with everyone else and the rest of the band move forward.

How does the public respond in 01 to a lineup of

Axl
New lead guitarist
Gilby/Izzy
Duff
Sorum
Dizzy

elevendayempire
 Rep: 84 

Re: Izzy: "Sometimes things don't work out"

A Private Eye wrote:

I think if you have a core two, like most bands they become the members people identify as ‘the band’. To anyone other than hardcores everyone else is largely interchangeable. Most major rock acts have had at least one lineup change over the years and the public barely blinks.

I think you can sometimes get away with losing one of the key two providing the rest of the band remains to provide stability to the lineup. It might not be the same but over time it is recoverable. See Ac/Dc although it helps if your next album with the replacement member is killer.

I’ve sometimes wondered how GNR goes over if only Slash left from the end of the UYI tour. If Axl patches things up with everyone else and the rest of the band move forward.

How does the public respond in 01 to a lineup of

Axl
New lead guitarist
Gilby/Izzy
Duff
Sorum
Dizzy

It's interesting – just about the only band I can think of that's successfully swapped out lead guitarists is the Red Hot Chili Peppers, and that's largely because the "core two" members are arguably Kiedis and Flea. AC/DC is the one instance where they were able to successfully switch out the lead singer, and that's at least partly because they hadn't quite hit the big time (and there weren't things like internet forums back then), and they lucked out with one of the biggest and best rock albums of all time as their first effort with the new singer.

Much would depend on who the new guitarist is, of course. I reckon that hypothetical line-up could work with someone like Fortus or Dave Navarro swapped in for Slash; someone with technical chops who's playing in a similar style. Finck or Buckethead would just be too divisive.

elevendayempire
 Rep: 84 

Re: Izzy: "Sometimes things don't work out"

monkeychow wrote:

I mean in a way they kinda have...who is melissa? A random session musician with a jpop image and background in non-traditional GNR sounds like computers and remixing - and with absolutely no historical connection to GNR and no performance on any released GNR track...yet she's up there as a valid part of the NITL line up and tour and accepted by the press as part of GNR and part of the GNR reunion....cos Axl and Slash said she was. That's all it took.

That's an interesting question – there's always that issue over what differentiates a backing musician from a bona fide band member. I mean, generally speaking Teddy Zig-Zag is considered a backing musician and Melissa (and Pitman) are considered band members – but who decides? Why is Ron Wood considered a member of the Rolling Stones but Darryl Jones isn't? He's been playing bass for them for two decades, he's laid down tracks on albums – by every reasonable measure he's the bassist for the Rolling Stones: https://www.loudersound.com/news/rollin … ber-status

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