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Re: How big of a deal was Steven being fired when it happened?

Wilco wrote:
James wrote:

To non-musicians and casual-fans you can replace stuff like rhythm guitar and drums and it doesn't matter

But that wasn't really the problem here.

The biggest issue after he walked out the door was losing your songwriter.

Rhythm guitar players are a dime a dozen....Grade A songwriters are priceless and irreplaceable.

It's 2022 and he still hasn't been replaced.

I think that's what tricked Axl into thinking he'd get away with replacing the whole band for a while. But it turns out Slash was not someone you can swap out so easily

Neither was Izzy.

Here here.

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Re: How big of a deal was Steven being fired when it happened?

Wilco wrote:
James wrote:
Wilco wrote:
James wrote:

Yeah...this is my recollection as well.

Fans wanted videos and due to no KOHD video, they had to whip one up out of the Ritz show.

I'll never forget that wacky MTV contest where you could win Axl's condo since he had to get away from his neighbor from hell.

It got a lot of attention...and while it's not an album highlight, kinda surprising in hindsight that they didn't do some kind of MTV promotion with Right Next Door to Hell when it was finally released.

Im kinda surprised RNDTH (say in an edited version omitting the “fuck you”) was never considered for a single. I mean, they released Garden of Eden as a single. Would argue Next Door was more radio friendly than Garden of Eden.

The single selection 91-93 definitely left much to be desired.

A lot of things probably influenced the decisions....

Izzy leaving ruined any potential of Dust N Bones, 14 Years, or Double Talking Jive as singles/videos

I always had a feeling DNB would've been a single...sandwiched between Don't Cry and Live and Let Die.

The grunge explosion had to have influenced things on some level...even if just from a label standpoint.

That tour was never ending and this would impact when songs might get the video treatment and more importantly.... when... example...

The Garden deserved to be a single much earlier than it was. By the time it was, nobody cared.

Too much focus/attention on the epic bloated video trilogy (DC, NR, Estranged).

Those had massive budgets.

I'll say it til my dying day...

DTJ.shouldve been a single... even if they have to go in and record with Axl on lead and release it as a double A side with a UYI track. It was the only UYI deep cut treated like a hit on the three year tour.

There had to be plans for it at some point.

DTJ should absolutely have been and I think was planned to be a single. They made it almost a centerpiece of the live act; I think they had plans for it.

This was an aggressive song with melody, a pop groove, very similar to the best of AFD.

It could absolutely have done really well on rock radio, and shown GNR were still “street” and could ha had a wicked video with gory imagery and insane crap, Axl couldve cone up with a twisted video

And as I said before, a sanitized RNDTH would’ve been an amazing summer release single. Say, early June 1991. Get kids in the skate parks. Aggressive and heavy - GNR is back!

Also, Ain’t it Fun should’ve been released as a standalone single in around May 1992.

Most casual fans didnt know it was a cover. It had a very grungy sound and feel to the guitars with a more grungy lower key vocal by Axl.

It absolutely would’ve fit in with the Seattle / AIC type stuff and showed GNR as more than capable of adapting to the evolving landscape

 Rep: 664 

Re: How big of a deal was Steven being fired when it happened?

James wrote:

KRON, Ohio-“I thought it was a one in a million chance,” said a Ohio college student who is grand prize winner of MTV’s Evict Axl Rose Contest

I'd like to see a documentary or book on all the winners of MTV contests and how it impacted their lives.

polluxlm wrote:

I think Izzy's departure is overstated and Steven the opposite.

Izzy was incredibly important in the 80s. His writing is all over Appetite and Lies, including some of their biggest hits. The band isn't completely helpless without him though, composing Jungle, It's So Easy and Rocket Queen. Also Paradise City and SCOM are not mainly Izzy songs.

On UYI he is still very prominent but he's not so much writing the big guns anymore. Don't Cry and YCBM yes, but those were written in the 80s. Clean Izzy brings 14 Years, Dust N Bones, DTJ, Bad Obsession, You Ain't the First, Perfect Crime and Pretty Tied Up to the table. Good songs, a few of them great, but these are Axl and Slash's albums. Most of the big songs are written by them alone or mostly alone.

In an alternate universe where Izzy leaves GNR earlier and they can't use any songs he was involved in writing, here's the tracklist for Use Your Illusion....

Use Your Illusion I

Live and Let Die
Back Off Bitch
November Rain
The Garden
Garden of Eden
Don't Damn Me
Dead Horse

Use Your Illusion II

Civil War
Knocking On Heavens Door
Get In the Ring
Shotgun Blues
So Fine
My World

It needed him...badly.

Once they shot their load with this, the remainder of the decade is a cover album(half recorded on Izzy's watch), Sympathy for the Devil, and Oh My God.

It's 2022 and "the Big 3" still haven't recorded or released a single song as a creative unit without the help of Izzy or completed songs from new GNR.....

And they've been reunited longer than Izzy was in the band.

I just had a vague memory of UYI credits being updated at some point and Izzy was on more songs...such as November Rain.

I think the name was the cause of all the trouble. Axl should never have exercised his legal right to usurp the band. He was secure either way. All it did was leaving Slash resentful and going for a power play that ruined their relationship.

Yeah...ego destroyed everything.

They also pulled a power play on Izzy. He was on the verge of being demoted before he bailed. I know he wasn't pulling his own weight at that late stage of the Illusion game but I still think it was bat shit crazy to do that to your songwriter...

Who the fuck did they think was going to help write that album they supposedly wanted in 94-96?!?

Funny that they called him....and Axl wanted him back in 2000-01.

Deep down I think they all know what a monumental loss it really was.

I wish he would do an in depth interview before we're all dead. I'd like to know the details of how and why he relinquished his rights to the name.

Writing wise I think they would have been more than fine to create a kick ass album in the mid 90s

I like to believe this was possible but the more time that goes by, the less I believe it.

Axl is bringing literally nothing to the table 93-96 while the rest of the guys are pretty much creatively spent from recent solo projects.

No wonder Izzy was called....

 Rep: 664 

Re: How big of a deal was Steven being fired when it happened?

James wrote:

absolutely would’ve fit in with the Seattle / AIC type stuff and showed GNR as more than capable of adapting to the evolving landscape

Something else that would've fit in to the Seattle thing is if they'd done a proper cover of Big Dumb Sex instead of the lame, tacked on outro to Buick Makane.

Another thing that shined a spotlight on DTJ and it was really the case on the PPV show....

It's the song where Axl intros it with a crazy rant/dedication.

It's the only deep cut in their discography to receive such attention.

Get kids in the skate parks

This reminds me...why is there GNR merch now with skater related imagery?

 Rep: 194 

Re: How big of a deal was Steven being fired when it happened?

tejastech08 wrote:

Speaking of alternate reality, imagine a scenario where the “Big 3” songs from Appetite fail to reach the Billboard Hot 100. Other than Tom Zutaut & Axl Rose, I don’t think anyone believed the band would become so insanely popular…especially with only 1 album.

So imagine a world where Appetite is not super popular from 1988 to 1995 and beyond. Their instant success helped destroy the band. Perhaps we would have gotten a lot more albums from them. Izzy never wanted to be in a band that sells out stadiums & large basketball arenas. He was happy with the band in the early days playing small capacity music clubs.

Less money & success would have kept Axl & Slash more humble, to avoid the ego problems of the Illusion era. Of course we are talking about a band that could have easily never recorded a single album, given Slash/Izzy/Adler drug problems and Axl’s mental problems.

 Rep: 664 

Re: How big of a deal was Steven being fired when it happened?

James wrote:

Yeah I've wondered about that large the discog would be if their popularity had been on the level of LA Guns.

On the other hand...the mega success may have saved them. I remember the articles back then saying how it was a miracle they stayed together long enough for one album.

Also take into consideration that the only reason Lies exists is thanks to the success of AFD.

 Rep: 661 

Re: How big of a deal was Steven being fired when it happened?

monkeychow wrote:

I think Izzy's real value was moderating Axl's bullshit and Slash's bullshit.

Is he a good songwriter? Sure. But realistically you add 1986-1993 Axl or Slash to literally anything and it sounds good. Add both and it's a classic. Want proof..check out Yesterdays....solid song by Del...but would you rate it without what Axl and Slash did to it? It would still be a good song, but as it stands it's a great song....and they didn't even try that hard on that one.

Look at what they can do alone. Alone Axl can write a Cather in the Rye or a There Was A Time...easily UYI worthy tracks if they'd been recorded by the 1991 band....and Slash can whip out a Slither...a grammy award winning hit that who knows how much better it would be if 1999 Axl rather than 2022 Axl had taken a stab at it.

I'm not familiar with izzy's solo catalogue enough to know if there's any gems in there, but I'd believe there's probably tracks that would make good GNR tracks.

Bottom line to me though is that Slash is the player of his generation and Axl is the voice of his generation....sure they need songwriters to work with to get the best out of them...and Izzy was good at that....but really you could have the industry feed 1991 Axl and Slash song ideas and if they agreed to do them together they would have been epic.

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Re: How big of a deal was Steven being fired when it happened?

Miguelox26 wrote:


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