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Re: Guns N' Roses Live From Rock In Rio
Bono wrote:Ali wrote:This whole being an "enabler" thing is based on a faulty premise. It's assuming that A) others have to share the same opinion as you and/or B) others have to be willing to draw the same conclusion as to how the larger group of shows will turn out even if it is agreed upon that one performance was subpar. Having a differing opinion is just simply having a differing opinion.
Ali
No it isn't based on a faulty premise. It's no different than a shitty sports franchise selling out every game. They continue to put the same product on the ice or on the field with no serious attempts to improve yet fans still buy tickets every game and sell out, in essence enabling a franchise to spend less and remain mediocre. Sure every once in a whiel the team puts in a thrilling performance or goes on a run that gives fans hope but in typical fashion they crash and burn when it matters most and then the whole process of "rebuilding" starts all over but the organization doesn't have to worry about moving forward cause the homes games are still sold out.
Honestly Ali if people would stop buying tickets to the "Guns N' Roses" maybe Axl would actually move forward and do soemthnig but it's people who continue to buy tickets to this that are enabling him to keep the status quo. Which is no new albums, no new setlist(one song doesn't count), no new anything. Just the same old, same old.
I'm as guilty as anyone as I've bought tickets to the 2002, 2006 & 2010 tours. But the premise that fans are enabling this is not in the least bit faulty. It's pretty accurate.
It's all very common sense.
It is a faulty premise and it is not based on common sense. Sorry, but if someone doesn't look at the Rio show and assume it will be representative of the rest of the tour, it only means that they aren't jumping to the same conclusion others are. I don't HAVE TO sit here and say because of one bad show I won't go to a US show. That's because I won't jump to conclusions based off one data point as opposed to a larger sample size. That's personal choice and completely valid.
If I buy tickets to see the Golden State Warriors simply because I like the idea of seeing NBA basketball live and find it entertaining, even though the team isn't very competitive, that's completely valid and doesn't make me an enabler. It just makes me someone that enjoys NBA games as a means of having a good night out.
You don't see it apparently, but the fundamental problem with this "enabler" concept is that the opinion that things are bad, wrong or completely unacceptable is the correct and only opinion. That just isn't the case, or it wouldn't be a matter of opinion.
Ali
no Bono was dead on.
If u continuously buy Golden St warrior season tickets and they go 20-62 every season.. consistently let their best players go to other teams and seem to have no desire to spend money or win, yes u are enabling the franchise by keeping them in business and giving them bigger profits without them having to put that money back into the team.
If u go as a one off to see what its all about.. u would be a casual fan and that isn't what we are talking about here.
of course GNR aren't the only band this pertains to. Hell Bon Jovi haven't tried to write a decent album in about 12 years.. but cause we keep buying all the shit ones.. they have no reason to change. If they make a shit album and we don't buy it.. maybe they will see that they gotta put a little more effort into it.
Re: Guns N' Roses Live From Rock In Rio
I'm not naive enough to think that anything I do or don't do will have any impact or sway in making Axl do anything.
I agree about HTGTH. The people left who post the Axlite posts is specifically because they think Axl reads that board. And licking jarmo's ass might be their "in" to Axl. Lame.
The funny thing is jarmo still gets these perks, but he has absolutely ZERO credibility, respect or sway among the GN'R fan community. It doesn't matter what he posts or deletes. People don't take that board serious anymore.
Re: Guns N' Roses Live From Rock In Rio
Ali wrote:Bono wrote:No it isn't based on a faulty premise. It's no different than a shitty sports franchise selling out every game. They continue to put the same product on the ice or on the field with no serious attempts to improve yet fans still buy tickets every game and sell out, in essence enabling a franchise to spend less and remain mediocre. Sure every once in a whiel the team puts in a thrilling performance or goes on a run that gives fans hope but in typical fashion they crash and burn when it matters most and then the whole process of "rebuilding" starts all over but the organization doesn't have to worry about moving forward cause the homes games are still sold out.
Honestly Ali if people would stop buying tickets to the "Guns N' Roses" maybe Axl would actually move forward and do soemthnig but it's people who continue to buy tickets to this that are enabling him to keep the status quo. Which is no new albums, no new setlist(one song doesn't count), no new anything. Just the same old, same old.
I'm as guilty as anyone as I've bought tickets to the 2002, 2006 & 2010 tours. But the premise that fans are enabling this is not in the least bit faulty. It's pretty accurate.
It's all very common sense.
It is a faulty premise and it is not based on common sense. Sorry, but if someone doesn't look at the Rio show and assume it will be representative of the rest of the tour, it only means that they aren't jumping to the same conclusion others are. I don't HAVE TO sit here and say because of one bad show I won't go to a US show. That's because I won't jump to conclusions based off one data point as opposed to a larger sample size. That's personal choice and completely valid.
If I buy tickets to see the Golden State Warriors simply because I like the idea of seeing NBA basketball live and find it entertaining, even though the team isn't very competitive, that's completely valid and doesn't make me an enabler. It just makes me someone that enjoys NBA games as a means of having a good night out.
You don't see it apparently, but the fundamental problem with this "enabler" concept is that the opinion that things are bad, wrong or completely unacceptable is the correct and only opinion. That just isn't the case, or it wouldn't be a matter of opinion.
Ali
no Bono was dead on.
If u continuously buy Golden St warrior season tickets and they go 20-62 every season.. consistently let their best players go to other teams and seem to have no desire to spend money or win, yes u are enabling the franchise by keeping them in business and giving them bigger profits without them having to put that money back into the team.
If u go as a one off to see what its all about.. u would be a casual fan and that isn't what we are talking about here.
of course GNR aren't the only band this pertains to. Hell Bon Jovi haven't tried to write a decent album in about 12 years.. but cause we keep buying all the shit ones.. they have no reason to change. If they make a shit album and we don't buy it.. maybe they will see that they gotta put a little more effort into it.
No, still not dead on. You're not seeing/reading/getting the whole gist of what I said. You completely missed/misunderstood/ignored the part about choosing to not jump to conclusions based on one show and the part about not agreeing that things are "bad" with GN'R. Sports franchises are different because there are objective criteria for the success of a sports franchise. The quality of music and/or live performances by an artist are entirely subjective. That is the thing, one of them at least, that you and Bono just are not getting. I don't HAVE TO agree with your opinion of the state of GN'R. You aren't right and I am not wrong.
Ali
Re: Guns N' Roses Live From Rock In Rio
Ali wrote:russtcb wrote:Oh I'm happy with my Chicago tickets and I'll be happy with my Detroit ones. My initial concern was that the tour happen at all based on Axl's whole attitude at RiR
Understood, but to suggest there is something wrong with buying tickets despite what, as of now, stands as a single bad show, is absurd to me.
Ali
I saw someone on mygnr started a thread to basically "pat themselves on the back" for having not bought tickets prior to Rock In Rio and how there's no chance they'll buy tickets now.
The way I look at that is "Yippie for you!". If you start a thread like that, you probably never had any intention on buying tickets, supporting the band and were probably hoping for the worst anyways.
My thing is this; I'm calling a spade a spade. RiR (IMO) was a bad show for Axl. Not because of his weight, not because of his voice, not because of the rain, not because SoaD ran over, not because he flugged some lyrics, simply because his attitude was terrible.
Having lived through A LOT of GN'R mishaps in the past 20 or so years as all of us have, I've seen his attitude get in the way more than anything. So I honestly became completely worried that his attitude at RiR meant that there might be some rough times ahead. Up to and including just plain cancelling the US Tour.
In any case, I'm still very happy I bought Chicago tickets, I'm looking forward to buying Detroit tickets and I sure as hell hope I get the chance to see both shows!
Man, I don't blame you for your concerns at all. They are valid. But, with respect, not buying a ticket for a show based on those concerns is one choice. It's not the choice everyone has to make, though, and it doesn't make it the "right" choice.
I've lived through a lot of GN'R mishaps in 23 years as a fan. One bad night hasn't been representative of a whole tour. Look at the 2002 VMAs. Was the 2002 MSG show as bad as that VMA performance? No and I think many would agree. So, I can safely say that to draw a conclusion that the 2002 tour would have been bad because of Axl's off night at the VMAs would have been an incorrect conclusion.
I agree with what you're saying about people having already made up their minds prior to Rio.
Ali
- monkeychow
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Re: Guns N' Roses Live From Rock In Rio
Call me an enabler if you will, but I would always buy a ticket to a GNR show. I think Axl has given some of the best peformances of all time which I loved, and written some of the songs that have deeply helped me in my own life. I therefore support in my own way by buying the products and seeing the shows.
My problem is how to react to this show. The guy is human - people have off nights - so I can see what neemo means that the sky is not falling in - however at the same time - I also see Olorin's point - I can't watch that video and pretend there's not some issues - I can't go to HTGTH and say it doesn't seem like there's anything wrong with Axl.
He didn't look in the best of health, either physically or emotionally. Now I'm not in my best physical condition myself either at the moment, and maybe he was just upset that the show didn't go to plan. But it's clear something isn't right - it's not the Axl we've seen some out in shows as recently as the last few years.
Then there's the emperor's new clothes that we don't talk about: His Voice. Obviously it's natural for it to change between 28 and 48 and it took a hammering back in the UYI era. It's natural for singers to be capiable of more on certain nights too.
But if you look at the proshot grabs over the last 10 years it's really unpredictable what he sounds like.
You have 2001 Rio where he had a very high voice with no rasp at all.
Then you have 2006+7 where he's returned to wild screams in his upperrange with loads of rasp - but where he seemed hit or miss in some of the midrange notes. Especially on songs like patience - it's like he can't quite fit it into either of his voices or something.
Then in 2009 he was screaming a lot and it kicked ass, but I noticed there was a lot of screaming and yelling. I have a boot of nighttrain from asia - and it's bad ass - but he basicly gets through the 1st verse by delivering the whole thing with the jungle opening style screamed rasp.
then there was this years rio - where his voice just seemed thinner than i've seen it before.
Now i'm not saying this shit to give Axl a hard time. And frankly it pisses me off when I read people saying he's lazy and doesn't reherse and so on because I think there's something much more worrying and significant going on than that.
I think the sound mix issues of the last decade and so on have been trying to cover it, and I think the variance speaks for it's self. I'm starting to worry that Axl is simply loosing his voice in general.
I hope I'm wrong. I hope he comes out stronger than ever in a couple of shows time. I'd love to hear the new guitar based Oh My God that we got a glimpse of at sound check (thanks for posting that jppgnr) and I'd love to hear what else he's sitting on in the studio. I don't mean to suggest the sky is falling in, but I can't listen to that rip and not be a little shocked to be honest. Never mind the words. It's everything else. Something isn't right.
Re: Guns N' Roses Live From Rock In Rio
I'm not naive enough to think that anything I do or don't do will have any impact or sway in making Axl do anything..
Well no shit. What YOU do as an individual isn't gonna make a lick of difference cause it would be pretty insignificant but what WE has a collectve fanbase do would. It's never gonan happen but if everyone just stopped buying tickets to Guns N' Roses YES it would have an impact on how Axl operates without question . Axl would either bunker down and make an album, reunite with the old band or retire completely. We sure as hell would't be having another CD tour. To deny this concept is to lack common sense. It's not different than voting. Of course one person's vote on it's own doesnt make a difference but when you add them all up it's huge.
If one person boycotts a Gn'R show it doesn't make a diference but if everyone did it would make a difference. Thats' the whole point. People continueing to buy tickets are in essence enabling Axl to continue doing what he's doing but unless you could make it a mass thing there's no point. Do what you wanna do cause it won't impact it either way.
Re: Guns N' Roses Live From Rock In Rio
misterID wrote:I'm not naive enough to think that anything I do or don't do will have any impact or sway in making Axl do anything..
Well no shit. What YOU do as an individual isn't gonna make a lick of difference cause it would be pretty insignificant but what WE has a collectve fanbase do would. It's never gonan happen but if everyone just stopped buying tickets to Guns N' Roses YES it would have an impact on how Axl operates without question . Axl would either bunker down and make an album, reunite with the old band or retire completely. We sure as hell would't be having another CD tour. To deny this concept is to lack common sense. It's not different than voting. Of course one person's vote on it's own doesnt make a difference but when you add them all up it's huge.
If one person boycotts a Gn'R show it doesn't make a diference but if everyone did it would make a difference. Thats' the whole point. People continueing to buy tickets are in essence enabling Axl to continue doing what he's doing but unless you could make it a mass thing there's no point. Do what you wanna do cause it won't impact it either way.
I don't think it would cause him to do anything, but of course if no one bought a ticket to a show, he just wouldn't perform anymore. But maybe you're right, Bono. But I don't ever really see that happening, so it doesn't really matter. So, it's not very realistic. Especially seeing fans overseas who will go see Axl no matter what.
Re: Guns N' Roses Live From Rock In Rio
I'm not naive enough to think that anything I do or don't do will have any impact or sway in making Axl do anything.
I agree about HTGTH. The people left who post the Axlite posts is specifically because they think Axl reads that board. And licking jarmo's ass might be their "in" to Axl. Lame.
The funny thing is jarmo still gets these perks, but he has absolutely ZERO credibility, respect or sway among the GN'R fan community. It doesn't matter what he posts or deletes. People don't take that board serious anymore.
He makes my skin crawl, he'd throw his granny in front of a bus if it meant there was the chance to suckle on the teet of one of Axl's cronies.
The warped logic and psychotic elimination of opposing views over there is sickening.
Mabye thats an insight into the world of Axl, that kind of crazy fanatisism and distortion of reality cant just spring out of nowhere, cause it was an relatively open board of discussion beforehand, that methodology must have been drilled into jarmo from somewhere.
Re: Guns N' Roses Live From Rock In Rio
misterID wrote:I'm not naive enough to think that anything I do or don't do will have any impact or sway in making Axl do anything.
I agree about HTGTH. The people left who post the Axlite posts is specifically because they think Axl reads that board. And licking jarmo's ass might be their "in" to Axl. Lame.
The funny thing is jarmo still gets these perks, but he has absolutely ZERO credibility, respect or sway among the GN'R fan community. It doesn't matter what he posts or deletes. People don't take that board serious anymore.
He makes my skin crawl, he'd throw his granny in front of a bus if it meant there was the chance to suckle on the teet of one of Axl's cronies.
The warped logic and psychotic elimination of opposing views over there is sickening.
Mabye thats an insight into the world of Axl, that kind of crazy fanatisism and distortion of reality cant just spring out of nowhere, cause it was an relatively open board of discussion beforehand, that methodology must have been drilled into jarmo from somewhere.
Or, it could be Jarmo's personal choice. I know many assume, but I've yet to see any conclusive link to show that how Jarmo runs his board is a direct edict from Axl. Hell, even if it was an edict, it may be more from Axl's people than anything else.
Ali
Re: Guns N' Roses Live From Rock In Rio
misterID wrote:I'm not naive enough to think that anything I do or don't do will have any impact or sway in making Axl do anything.
I agree about HTGTH. The people left who post the Axlite posts is specifically because they think Axl reads that board. And licking jarmo's ass might be their "in" to Axl. Lame.
The funny thing is jarmo still gets these perks, but he has absolutely ZERO credibility, respect or sway among the GN'R fan community. It doesn't matter what he posts or deletes. People don't take that board serious anymore.
He makes my skin crawl, he'd throw his granny in front of a bus if it meant there was the chance to suckle on the teet of one of Axl's cronies.
The warped logic and psychotic elimination of opposing views over there is sickening.
Mabye thats an insight into the world of Axl, that kind of crazy fanatisism and distortion of reality cant just spring out of nowhere, cause it was an relatively open board of discussion beforehand, that methodology must have been drilled into jarmo from somewhere.
^^
I think jarmo is operating with some obsessive fanboy's reaction to Axl. I really think he's operating and acting on his own accord but does take direction on deleting certain topics and shit. But you make a good point about it possibly being a glimpse into Axl's world. Scary stuff. Guess I'm saying jarmo's a douchebag on his own with no ones help in it 
Monkey, I'm very interested in tomorrows show because of everything you just mentioned. I looked over at HTGTH and there's some "between the lines" code in some of the regular members posts that basically say it was a bad night and they're concerned.
