This I Love was a left over from the old Guns. Axl was working that one up as a later addition post-UYI, and it was virtually proven as Axl diddy-ed it up on a November Rain piano solo, during a 1992 performance.

That's how old that song is, and alot of interviews from other band members pretty much said Axl was writing it then, and Axl referenced it as the heaviest thing he had ever wrote. To me, This I Love was his NR/Estranged for Stephanie Seymour, whereas the previous two were about Erin.

But Axl musically was not working in that direction back in 1992, nor are you considering that Axl had to personally thank Slash in the UYI liners because Axl met enormous resistance from Slash & Duff, neither of which wanted anything to do with November Rain or Estranged, two songs that arguably became GNR's most popular.

I think it's safe to assume that Axl considered This I Love a potential solo song at that point, or at least something that wouldn't see the light of day until Axl was allowed HIS album to make (which eventually became Chinese anyways, little did he know at the time).

So fast forward to 1995. Slash is completely balking at anything Axl wants to do with GN'R, including MTV Unplugged, Axl didn't want to support Spaghetti in 1994 (a return to their stripped down punk roots), and Slash presented a similar Appetite-styled album in the early parts of Five O'Clock Somewhere, Axl shitcanned it all, Slash walked, Axl reconsidered, but it was obviously something Axl wanted NO part of in no form, he was just considering it to keep the band together, and appease Slash.

You're also forgetting -- "My World" in 1991. An AXL-ONLY production, not approved by the band in advance, and something done and thrown on the album to appease Axl. Something that in 1991, was VERY much in the vein of Ministry, NIN, White Zombie, and even Rage Against The Machine, and parts of it was almost reminescent of early-Tripod/Music Bank-era Alice In Chains. All very Axl-type bands. Axl was also very supportive of Nirvana (pre-Kurt being a self-important, parodying douchebag), and an enormous fan of Soundgarden, which was a more experimental band at the time, before going mainstream with Superunknown.

I do think Axl was a fan of Robin and Bucket, even as far back then, and had kicked the tires on the idea of taking GN'R, even as early as 1991, in the direction of electronica rock, feeling it was the future of rock, WAY before anyone else did. I also feel Axl would've been more likely to have wanted to take GN'R in the direction of industrial rock, as opposed to grunge rock at the time. The irony of Duff being such a fan and a Seattle boy himself, Slash did interviews at the time really slamming grunge at a time that the LA rock & Seattle rock scenes were very divided in a "me vs. them" attitude, despite the fact both cities artists were churning out legendary Hall of Fame rock music.

In the end, I think HAD the band stayed together, and that 1995/96-GN'R album happened, I stand by my original stand that he compromise would've been a darker record with GN'R roots, stripped down in a grunge sensibility. My original statement was had that GN'R album happened, it would've been Brother Cane-rockers with Alice In Chains-Jar of Flies ballads.

I think that would've been that GN'R album. Then again... maybe i'm wrong. Still would've been bad ass either way, although I think Matt Sorum would've been the wrong drummer for that kind of album. Steven or even Josh Freese would've been far better suited.

Intercourse the date on those quotes has got to be wrong. The timeline doesn't even match up. I'm assuming that's supposed to say 2002, and not 1992.

And again, your whole opinion that you won't let go of about "everything you guys say is opinion and I am posting quotes from THE BAND MEMBERS WHO WERE THERE" is again, stretched.

1) You completely ignore Axl's existence as a band member
2) No weight was ever given in any of your posts towards Axl's side
3) Izzy & Duff's statements have changed over time
4) Most of my time was based on Slash's own statements over the history of GN'R
5) Where's Steven? Oh that's right his opinion doesn't count because he was fucked up... as was Slash, Izzy & Duff, but somehow Steven is different
6) How is it that Izzy & Duff can't remember the entire tours (according numerous statements), but all these interview quotes exist... selective, or drugs?

Just pointing that out...

Izzy leaving the band for chilling is not an entire fantasy--at all. Numerous band members have agreed with Axl's statements on that, including ones that didn't like him like Slash. Izzy was incredibly uncomfortable with the fame that GN'R had by late 1991, and when Izzy left, he stated as much. He didn't spit in Axl's face and call him a dictator, he waited to be a man and do it a thousand miles away in a fucking magazine. Izzy actually left the band for the exact reason that was stated. Just because a magazine quote says otherwise, doesn't mean we don't acknowledge what and how he filed his quitting papers.

Slash leaving again is not an entire fantasy. But it's not everything either. Slash, according to his book, left for a variety of different reasons, and his quitting in 1996 was a culmination of that. From the late starts throughout the UYI tour, the fact that Slash had never forgiven Axl for calling him out at the Stones show in 1989, Axl's statement to him in 1992 when he OD'ed and Axl told him "you scared me. I thought I was going to have to replace MY guitarist", which Slash said shocked him back to life and was a statement he never forgot, feeling as it defined how Axl looked at him as just another guitarist (yet according to Duff, he still signed over the rights to the name in 1993, after this incident). Plus coupled with the fact that Slash said that he could never communicate with Axl without having to go through Doug Goldstein, Beta, or numerous lawyers, whoever, and the fact that Axl basically didn't want anything to do with working his Snakepit album into the next GN'R album, plus the dissolution of the Uzi Suicide band agreement and "taking the band name with me".... Slash quit. Alot of reasons were involved, including the one above you called fantasy.

Matt got fired, because Matt was looking to get fired. He couldn't communicate with anyone, Axl didn't talk to him, and because he was on the outs of the clique (in a nutshell), pretty much was the reason he wanted out. Of course Matt has stated NUMEROUS DIFFERENT reasons over the years that don't line up as the reason he quit... so take anything Matt says with alot of bullshit detector. Matt says whatever gets him an interview.

Duff, although I haven't read his book, has wavered in the past on the reasons behind his quitting. I have heard just as many comments about Slash, "my brother wasn't there anymore", as the reasons behind him quitting. I've also heard Duff say he quit Guns because he had gotten sober, and Axl's lack of working was causing issues with his sobriety, as well as Slash's. I've also heard Duff say he quit GN'R, so he could focus on his education, rather than recording songs with Axl which Duff wasn't a big fan of (i'm assuming the infancy of Chinese, which later after trashing Axl's musical taste, both gave thumbs up to, despite Axl's lack of fanship of their post-Guns work, or at least Slash's). I've heard Duff say alot of things, and yes I heard the dictatorship comment too. But again, I didn't hear Duff or Slash start throwing that dictator thing around, until Izzy did.

But the end part is spot on. I couldn't agree more. Axl's lack of leadership, and the fact he no longer had Slash or Duff to lean on for getting "the little things" (like studio shit, producers, session musicians, drum sound, etc.) done anymore was glaring. And instead of Axl taking that ball, he decided to let Mother Goose do it. Pitman told a story that it was he who set up an entire studio at Axl's house, and showed him how to use it. This was one of their early meetings. And then Tommy said that basically when the band wrote their instrumental parts to Chinese, Axl again--wasn't present. Axl basically contracted a band, of Robin, Paul, Tommy, Josh, Dizzy & Chris, and it was up to them. Now I have no clue how much Axl handed to them, but still....

Then again, Axl self-admittedly as well as the people around him said Axl was completely fucked mentally during this period. I think he agreed to a new album in 1998/99, somewhere around there? And then immediately regretted it, the soul searching with Yoda, all kinds of crazy Michael Jackson rumors surrounding him, coupled with him playing all of the mystical shit up being locked in his house late at night, almost no public appearences, etc.

I don't know how committed to the project Axl was anyways. But once those papers are signed, they are signed. Even Axl said as much, and it took until 2008, and even still Azoff basically blackmailed him to get it.

Yes, all great points. And it's also in her job description to be pretty much whatever Axl needs her to be. If Axl truely is wanting to get the fuck out of there, but he doesn't want to be the bad guy to the fans, it's Beta's job to come in and spoil the party, like when your mom tells all your friends to leave and go home, because it's bedtime. In reality, junior actually wants to sleep, but mom is the one to kick everyone out.

So, the reaction of some of "why isn't Axl doing anything", Axl isn't doing anything because it's not his job. Axl's job is to show up and sing for Guns N' Roses. That's it. He pays, and probably pretty hefty too, for Team Brazil to make sure EVERYTHING works, not just showing up at the venue and scheduling shit.

"Manage it" ... maybe that's already well-known hidden language of the boss man telling them--get it done, you're pissing me off

I truely feel, and have for over 10 years at least, that Silkworms might be the most underrated GN'R song in the entire catalog, if you can call it a catalog song. I hadn't listened to it in years, and recently in preparation went through all of the GN'R albums, in live form, best of the best, 1986-present, in preparation for Appetite For Democracy.

I haven't thought, touched, or listened to anything Guns in at least 2 years, maybe closer to 3, not too long after the last live PPV they had (excluding leaks).

Well anyways, Silkworms live made the list for the Chinese-live stuff, and I listened to that Rio III performance, and fuck me.... what a fucking beast of a song. There was a time (anyone else?) when we burned the fucking shit out of those Rio III live performances, pre-2002 live, because that was it. The performance of Oh My God was the only known tune, and Maddy, The Blues, Chinese & Silkworms were all we had. Eventually Riad popped up.

I just got a bit of melancholy listening to some of those performance snippets from that 2001-2002 period. What a time that was. GN'R were gonna take over the world, Axl was back, Chinese was gonna be the greatest album of all time, it'll be out NEXT YEAR.... and fast-forward to the present.

Regardless, I said it then, I say it now... Silkworms is a diamond in the rough. And isn't supposed to be written by Dizzy? If so--wow. I just think there's an album out there with Axl, Robin, Bucket, Paul, Tommy, Brain/Josh, Dizzy & Chris' name on it, that's almost full-industrial from that period. That's still got a Rob Zombie-style remix of Oh My God, Silkworms, Riad & Chinese in it's original techno-Manson form, and a slew of other tracks that were prototypical of the music produced back in that era, that could've easily appeared on the soundtrack to The Matrix or Escape From L.A.

Or is it wishful thinking on my part? I sure hope so, and I hope it's released someday in it's original form, or at least with the collaboration of those group of guys.

The album should be called, "White Roses" (White Zombie meets GN'R)

To you Silkworms *raises glass*, I love you man...

See Mikka, I really don't think that is as much of a conspiracy theory as you think, but I do see your point there. The reason I originally used that analogy (and got a negative karma for it, from someone ) was I truely believe that Axl stays in constant defense mode for a reason.

For example, I have know people in my life which came from bad families, with very similar circumstances as Axl. Alot of abuse from all sides, verbal, physical, mental, emotional, etc. And when you have a voice in that abuse that gets quieted and quieted and stuffed down and your opinion doesn't matter, from the abuse of his step-father, to the abuse of his mother, to getting stuffed into lockers and no pussy (to quote Izzy, because apparently he knows), and so on. That person becomes bottled up with anger issues, and self-defense mechanisms, so much to the point it controls the flow of information in them to a T. They do what I call "Hyper-Process" ALL information. This is why Axl can fucking quote Izzy from a 1982 conversation at Pizza Hut in 2001, and Izzy looks like a deer in the headlights, and looks at Axl as crazy. Axl DID NOT (i'd put a HUGE sum of money on this), become that way because he was a dictator, or dictative in the traditional sense. Axl did this to protect himself from a world he felt "that owed him something" (to quote MANY people who knew him from that era), and he felt owed him because he had been SO silenced for SO many years, and he felt fully that everyone was "Out Ta Get Him".

I think Izzy wasn't far off on Axl's methods, but what I was trying to disagree with Intercourse on WAS THE REASON. "Izzy was there, he knows"... not necessarily. Izzy himself admits to mis-remembering the past, and also not even re-calling some of the same information that Axl did, and Axl threw at him.

I think Izzy has his perspective, and I DO AGREE that Axl took on some very authorative methods in Guns the more power he was able to secure. But when Axl stays defensive and stays in a mode of "fuck that guy, because he knows the truth" stuff, I think it's because of a two-pronged reason. 1) Axl doesn't believe people want the truth/his truth, and 2) Axl is absolutely/manically pissed off about it. And I think Axl stayed that way for many, many years. I recent years however, I think Axl has lightened up on it, but not for 'forgiveness' reasons. I think Axl just simply has given up on it. He himself admitted to the "damned if you do, damned if you don't" scenario, and I think Axl's case with Slash today is far closer to Indifference, than it is Anger. And that's actually worse for himself and fans. If Axl is indifferent to Slash, he simply could care less if Slash is on fire and dying. He just doesn't care anymore. Sure he knows, but he doesn't care.

Even when Axl made the "cancer" statement (a dick move, yes, but....); Axl was absolutely raped by critics and fans alike as "Axl the nazi" as always. Fuck you Axl, etc.

Now pretend your Axl, with an open mind.

Hypothetically

Axl: "I just gave my opinion, and again I get slammed unmercifully for it. Everyone thinks Slash is this great guy, but... whatever. Nobody cares what I think I guess"

That's the kind of stuff i'm talking about. He didn't say that, and YES I am putting words in his mouth, but it is HIS SILENCE that speaks volumes. If Axl says "I loved, or love the guy", BOOM REUNION STARTS NOW, and if he's honest about the past, and calls him not a team player or a cancer, suddenly he's a fucking dick, and NOTHING he says is objective or true.

Finally the guy just doesn't fucking talk about it. And at one point around 2008-09 (I think), it seemed like every interview Axl did, was somehow about Slash, or correlated to Slash. Obviously he wanted to talk about it. But you can see him, if ever, when he talks about it now, he's much more guarded and watches what he says, so much to the point, why talk about it?

Axl Rose is entitled to his opinion and perspective on the past. But there's ALOT of Gunners and fans that don't seem to think he is, and if Axl doesn't say EXACTLY what they want to hear in regards to the past, they gut him like a Steer.

That mainly is why I defend Axl sometimes. I don't think Axl is all that cool, or is all that nice. The lateness thing is full dickish. But when I see a man that NO ONE wants to defend, with an intelligent argument, I just look at the guy as he needs someone on his side, trying to see it from his pespective.

Fast forward to the present from that 1982 Axl personality. Axl is STILL in the same place he was, and has pretty much been his whole life (from his perspective). Axl now is no longer silenced--AT ALL. Axl can make a press release, write a book, post on an internet forum, do an interview, whatever he likes... but... again his words are manipulated and spun. By critics, by fans like us, by Team Brazil themselves, by lawyers, by bandmates, everyone. So now he can say whatever he wants about the past, but he's again climbing up hill because people in-general want him to say something that appeals to THEIR IDEA of HIS persona or their representation of the past.

When Axl fails to do that, which is EVERYTIME, all hell breaks loose. And at this stage, Axl has just shrugged his arms, looked to the sky with a smile and said "I can't do anything right... so why try?"

The man has an opinion and a view that he still feels as yet to be given any validation. At all. I kinda feel bad for the guy. And until he gets that validation, you will see the same Axl as always. Axl on the defense... ALL THE TIME. Axl in someways is drowning in business-created learned helplessness.