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Randall Flagg
 Rep: 122 

Re: A Song Of Ice And Fire

misterID wrote:

WOW spoiler -- probably nothing anyone didn't already know, it was shown in the show, but it's still pretty big as it negates a lot of theories people had about the books and Jon's ressurection.


Hidden Text:

Per the new book "Fire Cannot Kill A Dragon" Stannis will indeed burn Shireen. So all the Mel theories about her burning Shireen to bring back Jon go out the window. I do wonder if it has to do with Grayscale, Val makes a point of saying the girl is death and the disease will return. So it would seem Stannis makes it back to the wall.

Here's the quote from the author:

The fabled three big things GRRM told Dan and Dave that they used in the back seasons were Hodor's death (and origin story), Stannis burning Shireen and "who ends up on the Iron Throne." The only thing I can say aside from that is there will be some rather big differences.


How do they go out the window?  Shireen and Selyse are at the wall with Melisandre.  Stannis is outside Winterfell.  The idea Stannis is going to retreat back to the wall to get Shireen to then burn her is a pretty hard pill to swallow.  Yes, we know Shireen will be burned, but I don't think it will happen in the first half of the book.  Roose is going to unleash the Freys to attack Stannis' army first.  There's a good reason to think the whole lake scene from Season 7 is an homage to the Battle of Winterfell.  I find it very likely on what has been written that Stannis plans to lure the Frey army over a lake that he's already puts lots of holes in, decimating the Frey army on its charge.  To say nothing of what the Northern Conspiracy has cooked up for the Bolton's inside Winterfell.  Manderly is all team Stark, as are several other houses.  The show ignored Northern Loyalty, but as you know it's a real thing in the books.  I have no idea if Ramsay will kill Roose as he did in the show, but doing that would hinder his alliances, not help them.  Unlike the show, the Umbers are split 50/50 and possibly even 75/25 if you read into the conspiracy stuff for the Starks. 

Jon is coming back.  How, your guess is as good as mine.  But Sansa is primed to inherit control of the Vale forces, to say nothing of Nymeria's 1000+ wolf pack killing every Lannister and Frey soldier they stumble upon.

misterID
 Rep: 462 

Re: A Song Of Ice And Fire

misterID wrote:

Because George explicitly said "Stannis will burn his daughter" not Mel. It's easy to think Stannis will take out the Freys, the ice lake seems like it's going to be killer. But Roose ain't coming out of Winterfell. Whether Stannis wins or loses, he's going back to the wall. Once there he'll be faced with the prospect of both Aegon and Dany (with three dragons) challenging him for the iron throne, and The Others at the wall and whatever Euron does. He's not going to be in a great position even if he defeats Roose. He's going to need blood magic and kings blood. And who knows what Mel is planning or discovers in her flames.

misterID
 Rep: 462 

Re: A Song Of Ice And Fire

misterID wrote:

*My guess is that he tries to raise a dragon from stone.

Randall Flagg
 Rep: 122 

Re: A Song Of Ice And Fire

Maybe, but I think burning Shireen is how Jon comes back.  Stannis needs a Stark to take the North, and Mel will soon figure out Jon is TPTWP.  Stannis once said the hardest decision of his life was to support Robert in the Rebellion instead of Aerys.  If he learns who Jon is, will his strong code of Duty prevent him from helping put Jon on the Throne?

Dragons will never fly over the wall like they did in the show.  In Fire and Blood, one of the Targaryen's tried to, and their dragon would not fly over the wall no matter how hard they tried.

misterID
 Rep: 462 

Re: A Song Of Ice And Fire

misterID wrote:

You know, the more I think about it, the more possible it is that they try to raise a stone dragon and inadvertently raise Jon.

The Lord of Light cherishes the innocent. There is no sacrifice more precious. From his king's blood and his untainted fire, a dragon shall be born.[2]

—Melisandre to Stannis Baratheon

Only a king's blood can wake the stone dragon.[1]

—Melisandre to Stannis Baratheon

Shireen: I had bad dreams. About the dragons. They were coming to eat me.
Cressen: We have talked of this before. The dragons cannot come to life. They are carved of stone, child.[5]

—Shireen Baratheon and Cressen

I have seen it in the flames, read of it in ancient prophecy. When the red star bleeds and the darkness gathers, Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt to wake dragons out of stone.[4]

—Melisandre to Jon Snow


The Wall preserves things pretty unnaturally and there's magic there as well. Totally possible Jon is "dead" for a significant portion of WOW, with a few Ghost pov chapters in-between.

Randall Flagg
 Rep: 122 

Re: A Song Of Ice And Fire

misterID wrote:

You know, the more I think about it, the more possible it is that they try to raise a stone dragon and inadvertently raise Jon.

The Lord of Light cherishes the innocent. There is no sacrifice more precious. From his king's blood and his untainted fire, a dragon shall be born.[2]

—Melisandre to Stannis Baratheon

Could mean Jon being brought back.

Only a king's blood can wake the stone dragon.[1]



—Melisandre to Stannis Baratheon

Could be Danerys hatching her stone eggs

Shireen: I had bad dreams. About the dragons. They were coming to eat me.
Cressen: We have talked of this before. The dragons cannot come to life. They are carved of stone, child.[5]

—Shireen Baratheon and Cressen

Dany’s dragons are probably coming to Dragon Stone.

I have seen it in the flames, read of it in ancient prophecy. When the red star bleeds and the darkness gathers, Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt to wake dragons out of stone.[4]

—Melisandre to Jon Snow

This is the big one and no one knows. Most likely Dany, as there’s no star when Jon is stabbed. Guess we’ll have to see if one appears.

The Wall preserves things pretty unnaturally and there's magic there as well. Totally possible Jon is "dead" for a significant portion of WOW, with a few Ghost pov chapters in-between.

I think so too. I also think it’s how Jon keeps his sanity instead of losing himself like Beric, Catelyn or Cold Hands.

misterID
 Rep: 462 

Re: A Song Of Ice And Fire

misterID wrote:

Salt could be tears And stone could be grayscale. Poor Shireen. I wonder how Patchface reacts.

And it's pretty clear Bran and perhaps even Blood Raven can communicate to Jon while in Ghost.

Randall Flagg
 Rep: 122 

Re: A Song Of Ice And Fire

ID, have you read Fire and Blood or the Dunk and Egg stories?

misterID
 Rep: 462 

Re: A Song Of Ice And Fire

misterID wrote:

No, not yet. I was going to start reading some D&E stories. I've heard mixed reviews about fire and blood.

Randall Flagg
 Rep: 122 

Re: A Song Of Ice And Fire

Fire and Blood reads like a history book.  I enjoyed it, but if you're looking for a compelling story, that ain't it.  Gives you a fantastic insight into the Targaryen's and how the dragons were though.

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