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buzzsaw
 Rep: 426 

Re: Wiki Leaks

buzzsaw wrote:

My point is similar to what cc is saying. If you think this is disgusting, imagine what was going on before we had the access to information that we do today. Sometimes shitty things have to be done in the interest of self preservation. Sometimes shitty things that don't need to be done are done in the interest of self preservation. You learn to live with those bad things because of the life the necessary things allow us to live.

IRISH OS1R1S
 Rep: 45 

Re: Wiki Leaks

IRISH OS1R1S wrote:

I am sure it has been just as bad in the past before we had this information, but thats part of my point. Then we didn't know so we could'nt really have a say in it but now we do and so should be obligated to not turn a blind eye.

Thats just my 2cents which I know won't change anything ..............but I try. big_smile

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buzzsaw
 Rep: 426 

Re: Wiki Leaks

buzzsaw wrote:

What can be done about it?  We can't even agree on how to give tax breaks in this country, so there's no chance of changing much of anything. If there ever is change, it's going to take a major revolution. That is not going to come from wikileaks, who have an agenda every bit as large as the people they are speaking out against.

IRISH OS1R1S
 Rep: 45 

Re: Wiki Leaks

IRISH OS1R1S wrote:

Thats the thing, I would'nt know what to do about it, I wish I did. I do think agreeing to not condone the behaviour would possibly be a start.
I do agree with you that a revolution would be needed for change and that wikileaks is not going to accomplish it. Im not particularly referring to the wikileaks either as I cannot say I know a whole lot about it.

I was just talking in general terms on a global scale about the things happening in our world and how we let this shit just fly over our heads without question.

Randall Flagg
 Rep: 112 

Re: Wiki Leaks

So what is this nut job willing to sacrifice for his crusade for truth?  Is he willing to leave the comfort of his home to make the change he feels enlightened and righteous that he champions?  Cause without force and sacrifice, you're nothing more than an acne faced teenager sucking the tit of his mother while you live in the basement.  You want to change the world, you'll have to get past me and 2 million other armed and willing combatants who have no problem leaving the safety net we've provided for you.  Until that point, please return to fantasia and let the adults get back to work.

Randall Flagg
 Rep: 112 

Re: Wiki Leaks

Allow me to expound further.  You act as if you have a right to this information; as if it's yours and the worlds to view as they see fit.  This is incorrect.  It is the intellectual property of the US Govt and was manufactured by the blood and sweat of America and her allies.  Even someone as naive and immature as you can understand that intellectual property is something that must be respected in order to maintain any semblance of a structured and organized society.  Of course you could denounce such a suggestion, but doing so is as lazy and immoral as the the acts you quickly project onto others.  You obviously possess nothing of any intellectual value and have made no personal efforts to manufacture.  Even the diatribe you preach is unoriginal and simply a parrot of the thoughts of others. 

You were given access to this information because some disgruntled faggot (literally) committed an act of treason.  Even if their was some moral reasoning behind his actions such as revealing alleged "war crimes", he could have simply released information pertinent to such corruption.  He didn't utilize such discretion and revealed everything within his ability to do so.
The loss of civilians, while tragic, is part of war, specifically this one where insurgents and civilians consciously make efforts to blur the line.  This is not to diminish the need to minimalize such tragedies, but you suggest that events like these are common occurrence and not that they are as any prudent person understand, extreme exceptions to normal procedure.  You become enraged over the loss of 60,000 civilians, yet fail to make the distinction between the cause of loss of life.  Are these people killed by their own countrymen amidst a religious war within their borders?  If so, how is the supposed "corruption" of the west responsible?

When you're ready to discuss something that isn't dependent on your newage philosophy that quite frankly, doesn't sound all too different from the general premise of Scientology let me know.  I have a degree in Philosophy and Political Science focused on political theory, so I'm more than game if you're up to the challenge.

IRISH OS1R1S
 Rep: 45 

Re: Wiki Leaks

IRISH OS1R1S wrote:

May I ask who your post is directed at? because if its me I most certainly never implied I was on a crusade of any kind and none of my posts are to try persuade anyone to believe anything they do not agree with.

My posts are my opinions.
I also never mentioned or attacked any country US or otherwise, not to mention I never once or would never be insulting to anyone on a forum I've been a member of for years.

Then again you may not have been referring to me at all, its just your post is after mine which is why I asked.

Axlin16
 Rep: 768 

Re: Wiki Leaks

Axlin16 wrote:
IRISH OS1R1S wrote:

The fact that none of this is jaw-dropping to alot of people is why the world is the way it is. People say, but its always been like this or well everyone knows this stuff happens, That does not make it acceptable.

If I smoke weed I may be fined or even jailed but if a government tortures, jails or even murders an innocent man its ok  18

I really do not understand some peoples logic.
I have had these debates with many people over the years and I always felt like I was banging my head against a wall. The fact is it will never change as long as the majority think its ok.

Anyway carry on people, these are just the opinions of mine and who am I eh?

It's not jaw-dropping, because we all know governments, U.S. or any of them, make dirty deals behind closed doors. Where's the shock in that? WikiLinks exposed Scientology... wow. Everyone KNEW it was a scam to begin with. They did nothing but confirm.

We all know that just about every country in the world will strangle some guy in an alleyway with piano wire in order to save thousands of lives. It's cliche, but yes, the Jack Bauer's of the world exist in order to keep the world homeostatic.

Randall said it... people have a massive misconception that they have a right to all knowledge and news, whether political, religious, financial, etc. Well... no you don't. The people only have a right to know, if they have a legit reason to know, and 98% of people don't have a reason to know, especially if it concerns the security of America. And we all know the only thing that matters in this world is American interests and anything that's countered to them. It's been that way for years, and it's not gonna change... at least not anytime soon.

My issue with change isn't because "the world is the way it is" and nobody seems to care about themselves, and so on. I love my fellow man. I want to protect the world from the bad guys. And ANYTHING that is countered to BIG BUSINESS and their interests, even if it's tied-into the U.S. government, IS the enemy. IS the bad guy. And i'd love to take them down.

I just KNOW, that NOBODY is gonna back me up. So why try? 200, 300 - thousand - people ain't gonna get it done. It takes an entire country saying "fuck you", and that's never gonna happen. People are too passive, scared, lazy or a combination of those three. And as long as THAT stays that way, NOTHING will ever change.

I can only put my neck out there so many times and get left holding the bag, until I just say, "fuck this. These people aren't worth salvation".

Real power is something you take. And the people, nowhere are willing to take it. They think they are entitled to it. Owed it, because they are people and that because all humans are owed human rights, that they are also owed freedom of choice and with that power. Well - I agree, you are. But that ain't the way the world works.

Until they are willing to take back those things for themselves and the people, they will remain sheep. They've gotta get off their butts and work for it, and stop thinking they are owed it. It takes millions and we're nowhere near that point, and I highly doubt we ever will be. So why should I care?

Randall Flagg
 Rep: 112 

Re: Wiki Leaks

IRISH OS1R1S wrote:

May I ask who your post is directed at? because if its me I most certainly never implied I was on a crusade of any kind and none of my posts are to try persuade anyone to believe anything they do not agree with.

My posts are my opinions.
I also never mentioned or attacked any country US or otherwise, not to mention I never once or would never be insulting to anyone on a forum I've been a member of for years.

Then again you may not have been referring to me at all, its just your post is after mine which is why I asked.

No, it's not directed at you.  It's directed at the person who believes he's able to provide the people who listen to him with a path of redemption.  As well as the foolish notion that nodding your head in agreement from your computer desk towards the acts of strangers is somehow a meaningful contribution.

polluxlm
 Rep: 207 

Re: Wiki Leaks

polluxlm wrote:

Probably not. But while posting a few links on a board isn't exactly work of Magellanian proportions, it is at least something compared to the drone majority whom spend most of their waking hours refreshing facebook. Character assassination usually ends up being a pretty hypocritical endeavour. And even when it's not you'll still come off as an ass for doing it.

Although a tad too submissive for my integrity, soldiering is definitely a neccessary and honorable profession, but perhaps you should clear up some of your own delusions about what you do. I've been in the army and the motivation for the guys was definately more Rambo oriented than it was say, George Washington and the altruistic patriot. And if you understand anything about human psychology you'll see that wether or not the US military has provided more security than harm for the nation is not at all clear cut. Seeing your family bombed to shreds over oil stocks can definitely bring the terrorist out in you. When you do it in 200 countries it might be reasonable to expect some reactions. Not saying your government always had a choice in all those operations, but that's the way of the world and trying to put good and evil labels on it doesn't really get you anywhere.

I don't believe there are many persons that don't understand the importance of intellectual property if they get some time to think about it. But then again, using that as a veil for criminal activities isn't exactly right either. It's a little bit like Tony Soprano claiming privacy when the feds tap his phones. And in the end it doesn't really matter. What is done is done and what is out there is out there. The perp is in jail and the USG learned that if you share secret documents to millions of government officials it might end up leaking. Especially if the documents you pass around to your god fearing employees attest to war crimes and torture. A reasonable person educated and cultured in the western world might take offense to that, even though the sociopaths at the top don't. And while I can't support the actions of Manning on a judicial level I'm certainly glad there are still people around willing to break the law for something they know is right.

I think we should forget for a minute the obvious illegal actions behind the leak and rather focus on what is being revealed and how the authorities are reacting to it. While the documents contain some interesting stuff, it's mostly just harmless backdoor banter confirming what most of those interested enough already knows. The juicy part is that now it's finally in the true open, being discussed on a mass scale. People are starting to realize that the ever increasing goverment might not be the guarantee they always thought. The political witch hunt for Assange on the most ridiculous trumped up charges I've seen in a while is a huge concern considering the man is not really guilty of anything more than any other news publication printing these documents. They might be able to hang him using the fascist patriot act, but that shouldn't really be a morale compass for anything.

You say we can't do anything about it and you're exactly right. The socialist government machines we have in the western world today cannot be stopped. They simply have enough of your money and influence to do whatever the fuck they want, and if you complain there are more than enough legal obscurities to give you the liberal version of a siberian labour camp. 

And that's the point I atleast am trying to make. Governments can't be trusted. Liberal, conservative, democratic, autocratic. It has never worked and it never will. That's why governments need to be small.

No need to quote me on that, cause I'm 200 years late.

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