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Re: A Darwinian look at the track listing
better and ITW must predate 2005 as we assume they have bucket on them, and he left in 04
True. Likeliest case puts them into 2003, as Bucket 'stopped working' with Guns after they missed the 12/31/03 deadline set by the label.
But Better and ITW may provide indication as to the bands songwriting chops following the '02 tour, which I personally consider to have been nothing short of monstrous.
Re: A Darwinian look at the track listing
LIES THEY TELL (Legal Title)
BMI Work #9873393
Alternate Titles:
SCRAPED
Songwriter/Composer Current Affiliation CAE/IPI #
CARROLL BRIAN PATRICK BMI 239688123
COSTANZO CARAM CHASE BMI 355601080
ROSE W AXL ASCAP 216357969
Publishers
THE NOSE KNOWS MUSIC BMI 563053367
Additional Non-BMI Publishers
- FlashFlood
- Rep: 55
Re: A Darwinian look at the track listing
FlashFlood wrote:better and ITW must predate 2005 as we assume they have bucket on them, and he left in 04
True. Likeliest case puts them into 2003, as Bucket 'stopped working' with Guns after they missed the 12/31/03 deadline set by the label.
But Better and ITW may provide indication as to the bands songwriting chops following the '02 tour, which I personally consider to have been nothing short of monstrous.
i think that is a great point...after playing a couple dozen shows with that version of the band they could have had that creative influx. certainly with better and ITW most likely.
Re: A Darwinian look at the track listing
another thing about this...Brain was saying that josh had laid down 30 songs by the time he arrived..that would pretty much date everythign to prebucket as in 06 Axl claimed to have 32 songs in during the Korn Party
what if BH/Brain only brought Shacklers and Lies they tell to the table? that would be weird..but plausible cuz it seems that Axl wasnt interested in new stuff from brain in that recent interview ... just him adding his sig to existing material which was already recorded
a second train of thought makes me envisualize 2 distinct recording periods
98-99 - Pitman, Tobias, Dizzy, Axl, Freese as mentioned on Chris's site..Madagascar and if the world getting a writing Credit from Pitman and Rose here supports this theory
then somewhere along the lines the album is turned down and they hit the writing pad again in
03-04 - BH, Brain, Robin, Tommy, Axl which spawned tracks like Shacklers and Lies they tell as shown here which is where madagas' info comes from
Re: A Darwinian look at the track listing
But Better and ITW may provide indication as to the bands songwriting chops following the '02 tour, which I personally consider to have been nothing short of monstrous.
like i said above i think ITW comes from the 98-99 sessions
and i would wager that Better most likely came after the 02 fiasco...
but those are both just guesses
one thing i think is that nearly all of the recorded material from this current band is almost a decade old ... which is fucked up
Re: A Darwinian look at the track listing
another thing about this...Brain was saying that josh had laid down 30 songs by the time he arrived..that would pretty much date everythign to prebucket as in 06 Axl claimed to have 32 songs in during the Korn Party
There were around 30 tracks completed (some of them with lead vocals) by the Axl/Robin/Paul/Tommy/Josh/Dizzy/Pitman lineup.
"We've been working on, I don't know, 70 songs." (Axl, MTV, 11/07/99)
There were another 40 tracks on the B-list, as they called it.
And this is after RTB was let go:
"I went to the studio 3 weeks ago [in mid-February] and heard 41 songs [...] from the 60 or 70 [Axl]'s working on..." (Kerrang, 03/07/02)
Still, a pool of 60-70 songs in various stages of completion, with 41 apparently something to show off.
What you have to understand is that all the leaks are A-listed tracks, no matter from which era they come from. At this point, A-list equals solid song structure and lead vocals. B-list could be characterized as loops, sketches and ideas. If we'd hear some of them, we might figure where the whole song is in the first place. While songs like ITW or Better may have existed a long period of as beats, loops and various guitar parts, they've more likely been kept on the B-list as the A-list'd demanded a more hands-on approach.
it seems that Axl wasnt interested in new stuff from brain in that recent interview ... just him adding his sig to existing material which was already recorded
It does appear that in 2001, Axl was adamant about re-recording all 30 A-listed tracks made with Sean Beavan to pass the mustard. This was likely due to Bob Ezrin's offhand comment about having only three good songs.
Meanwhile, Brain & Bucket might've just as well contributed to the everpresent B-list by bringing in stuff the band would work on. Take Silk Worms.
"I wouldn't say it's like, you know, that we recorded a double album, or that we have all of our scraps to be the second one. There is a distinct difference in sound. The second leans probably a little more to aggressive electronica with full guitars, where the first one is definitely more guitar-based." (Axl, MTV, 11/07/99)
Silk Worms was likely Dizzy and Pitman going out on their own cognition to create 'something new', which was something Axl wanted to experiment on at the time. Therefore, should it come as a surprise that when the two immensely talented Brians (The Coreys of GNR 
) came aboard, Axl'd give them the same treatment? 'Guys, re-record this n' that and then go out on your own to come up something for the band.' Stuff like Shackler, Rhiad and Scraped.
Some of the things they would've been pointed to might've been existing sketches, loops and ideas from the B-list, some might've just as well been original contributions, from which the band created songs.
a second train of thought makes me envisualize 2 distinct recording periods
98-99 - Pitman, Tobias, Dizzy, Axl, Freese as mentioned on Chris's site..Madagascar and if the world getting a writing Credit from Pitman and Rose
That was definitely a period during which a good chunk of the material was initially created.
03-04 - BH, Brain, Robin, Tommy, Axl which spawned tracks like Shacklers and Lies they tell as shown
It does, again, appear that not much new material was written during RTB's era (early '00-late '01), and that they were more interested in revising the old.
That would make early '02 and the whole 2003 the second main years of song-writing.
The rest has just been about re-mixing and legal issues.... For a while now.
Re: A Darwinian look at the track listing
i dunno i take later comments as more acurate than older ones...like in '99 Axl says 70 or so...in '06 Axl said 32 songs with 26 nearly complete and 13 slated to be on the album....well then what is considered a "song"? a 10 second riff? a keyboard loop? to me a song should be somethign with some structure..it also appears to me that some different iedas may have been wrapped up into the same track...take better for instance clearly 2 or 3 "songs" in one there
but based on brain's interview he re-recorded 30 or so whole entire tracks to take 2 weeks a pop to redo each of them...which leads me back to the "how many songs did brain and BH actually help write?" that answer alone may rock the fanbase to its core alone....if dizzy, pitman get 40% of the credits with bh/robin geting like 15 then i wont know what to say 
but with brain redoing 30 or so songs written by freese in 99ish then in 06 there is only 32 tracks? wtf we know that lies they tell and shacklers revenge come from the bh/brain era...and we know brain redid 30 josh freese tracks...do the math..unless of course the 26 (about 30) nearly complete tracks are from the 98-99 era and then the 6 other tracks are the 02-03 era
Re: A Darwinian look at the track listing
Again, I believe those 32 songs Axl mentioned in early '06 represented the contemporary A-list. The B-list would've therefore consisted of songs not worked on regularly at the time, and it could be around 30-40 songs. Some songs may have been abandoned altogether, so the exact B-list numbers are obviously a guessing game.
As you said, Shackler and Scraped are obviously Bucket & Brain tracks; Dizzy has mentioned Baz's favorite, The General, to be a Brain track. Rhiad's a likely B&B track - I wouldn't be surprised if Sorry would be one as well.
They came in comparatively late into the game, but definitely contributed to wholly new studio tracks. That's the best answer I currently have. Will be interesting to learn more as time passes.
And how about we hear Thomas Eugene Stinson on the matter?
"We did most of the music as a total collaborative effort a while back, most of the music was recorded four years ago. In the last seven years, in the last four years, it's been pretty much done. [...] It's been through a couple of producers' hands, some have been good, some have been bad." (Tommy, Rhinocast, 01/16/06)
Tommy recorded the interview in late 2005. Therefore, most of the music was done (as in, written) between '98 and '01. This definitely jives with a lot of things. Sean Beavan came into the fold in '98 and managed to draw Axl's focus into place and songs started to trickle out from the sessions. All 30 of them. Additional tracks were also written with the '01 lineup, it seems.
So you know, don't despair.
Re: A Darwinian look at the track listing
yeah maybe the more "aggressive electronica with full guitars" influened tracks were shelved until Chinese Democracy was finished..which would also make a bit of sense too
if that is the case maybe there are 32 tracks nearly ready to go and another 30 or so waiting in the wings to be worked on and developed from their infancy stages....
