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James
 Rep: 627 

Re: Axl's optimism in 2002....

James wrote:

Was looking through CD Whispers for something else and stumbled upon this infamous quote about the album....


----

There's been some concern. That if we play five or six new songs, then there can't that many more on the album. Au contraire, mon frére. We're just playing the songs we're not considering putting out as singles or anything. So, you'll get 18 songs, and about 10 extra tracks.

---


This was heavily mocked over the years.... especially as they kept performing the same small set of songs on the next CD tour.

Hindsight appears to actually vindicate him on this. To any new/younger fans here, he's not really referring to a second album here although obviously he had at different points. He's including B sides.

Since he said this in 2002, we now know of the Village Sessions obviously and factor in Fortus statements about Axl working on vocals briefly in 2001 and 2002, and very little afterwards...more songs are in contention or as the saying goes....A listed.

Let's have a look....

--

Madagascar
TWAT
Atlas Shrugged
Perhaps
Prostitute
Riad
Catcher in the Rye
Chinese Democracy
The Blues
Silkworms
Oh My God
IRS
Oklahoma
If The World
Hardschool
State of Grace
This I Love
Going Down

---

That's 18. I included Oh My God because they performed it in that timeframe and was at least briefly considered to be in contention for the album.

I included Oklahoma because it's a finished track at this point due to being the alternate at HOB.

Now let's see the rest....

--

The General
Quick Song
Soul Monster
Zodiac
Better
Circus Maximus/Ides of March
Sorry
Thyme
Scraped
Shackler's Revenge

--

There's 10.....and there's still more material that can replace various tracks listed above.

I didn't bother listing Seven due to the possibility that it's Circus/Ides

There's killer tracks such as DTune, Curly Shuffle, etc that are just waiting for vocals.

A monster jam like Prom Violence begging to be a real song.

Also possible for a track like Devious Bastard to be released as is.

I was one of those who mocked the 18 + 10 pipe dream 2002 release as I didn't believe they truly had that much to work with at the time.

I was wrong.

There's an alternate universe where 2002 is an amazing year for GNR...and their fans.

Wagszilla
 Rep: 6 

Re: Axl's optimism in 2002....

Wagszilla wrote:

The sad thing is by 2006 you'd be lucky if they played three a night.

I think he was probably jazzed about being a public rockstar again. In other words, social isolation is bad for you.

"Shacklers Revenge" didn't have vocals until 2007.
"Soul Monster" didn't have vocals until December 2006/2007.
"Scraped" I think fits alongside the two above.
"This I Love" was possibly a 2006-2007 vocal session.

Neither "Catcher" nor "This I Love" were destined for the first two albums, the former being a 3rd album song and the latter being strong-armed by Robin into being a thing after Axl forced Dave Dominguez to wipe previous versions of it.

I think he had 2 albums ready in 2006 at his post KROQ party.

I'll repeat this until I'm blue in the face: I have no idea why GNR/Universal is not releasing this stuff. It's a sunk cost.

Re: Axl's optimism in 2002....

AtariLegend wrote:
Wagszilla wrote:

"Shacklers Revenge" didn't have vocals until 2007.
"Soul Monster" didn't have vocals until December 2006/2007.
"Scraped" I think fits alongside the two above.
"This I Love" was possibly a 2006-2007 vocal session.

Any source on this? Better for example looking at the credits i very similar (in credits) to the tracks above and vocals by 04 at the latest.

I bet Leave Me Alone, Seven, Thyme and The General all had vocals by 2002 for Beltrami to work on shortly after.

Wagszilla wrote:

Neither "Catcher" nor "This I Love" were destined for the first two albums

I'm not sure there's any proof though on this first two albums stuff and if so, what "first two albums"?

James
 Rep: 627 

Re: Axl's optimism in 2002....

James wrote:

Shacklers Revenge" didn't have vocals until 2007.
"Soul Monster" didn't have vocals until December 2006/2007.
"Scraped" I think fits alongside the two above.

Damn. I had a feeling Shackler's might have been from that last session but included it anyways.

That's only three songs.... enough alternates left to get it to 28.

Neither "Catcher" nor "This I Love" were destined for the first two albums, the former being a 3rd album song....

I stopped believing in this type of concept/grand vision for the project the moment that the official tracklist was unveiled in 2008...

It was a leaks album with three bonus tracks to pad out the album.

If he would've done such a thing in 2008, he would've compromised it any other year as well.

The vision was clearly not set in stone.

If they're finished tracks... they're in contention.

Wagszilla
 Rep: 6 

Re: Axl's optimism in 2002....

Wagszilla wrote:
AtariLegend wrote:

Any source on this? Better for example looking at the credits i very similar (in credits) to the tracks above and vocals by 04 at the latest.

I bet Leave Me Alone, Seven, Thyme and The General all had vocals by 2002 for Beltrami to work on shortly after.

1. Shacker's was inspired by media coverage of 2007 Virginia Tech shooting and connection to Mr. Brownstone.
2. Axl's comment about singing it over Christmas. Vocals were finished in December 2006 and 2007 at The Palm in Vegas. Betas comments about the album being finished/in-negotiations.
1.-4. All sound to the ear markedly different than the Sean Beavan "clean vocal" sessions. Even "Better". Way more body in his vocal.

AtariLegend wrote:

I'm not sure there's any proof though on this first two albums stuff and if so, what "first two albums"?

1. Axl described it as much:

"For now, we’ll concentrate and keep our focus on this album, but I will say I’ve always thought of it as a double." Axl Rose (December 2008)

"But basically, we have what I call kind of the second half of Chinese. That's already recorded." (Axl, Revolver Magazine, 05/14)

http://www.gnrevolution.com/viewtopic.php?id=11368

2. Fan reported story to GNROnTour in 2002. Obviously not exactly a smoking gun but that's what they said. And far before the Baz comment "he's like George Lucas, dude!" story which underscores its reliability. "Catcher = 3rd album, Chinese is more aggressive" is the summary. I'll have to dig it up.

Re: Axl's optimism in 2002....

Sky Dog wrote:

Diary of a Madman...Axl woke up everyday with a different plan...Pete Townsend went crazy on his Lifehouse project in 70-71, couldn’t pull it together so he carved out a 9 song masterpiece dubbed Who’s Next. Anywhere from late 2000-2002 Axl could have pulled 10 songs out and done the same. Unfortunately, Axl is not Pete. axl

Wagszilla
 Rep: 6 

Re: Axl's optimism in 2002....

Wagszilla wrote:

Comment from Izabel Oliviera:

So, after Paradise City, still BLOWN AWAY by the show, I saw John M had found an After Show pass!! Talk about luck!!

Axl also mentioned that Catcher in the Rye will be on the third record. He said that CD will be a very intense record and the second one will be more of introspective. He said they'll keep on touring and that he really enphasized they'd be back in the summer at the end of the show because this is going to happen (which makes me wonder about these cancellations...) At this point someone asked if CD was coming out in 2002, and he said no (kinda obvious, but....)

This was according to her the afterparty for the 12/05/2002 show at Madison Square Garden.

FlashFlood
 Rep: 47 

Re: Axl's optimism in 2002....

FlashFlood wrote:
James wrote:

Was looking through CD Whispers for something else and stumbled upon this infamous quote about the album....


----

There's been some concern. That if we play five or six new songs, then there can't that many more on the album. Au contraire, mon frére. We're just playing the songs we're not considering putting out as singles or anything. So, you'll get 18 songs, and about 10 extra tracks.

---

This was Axl hedging his bet. He was covering his ass for if the media said these songs were shit. That “some concern” was from his own mind. I have no doubt Axl thought Chinese Democracy, The Blues, and Madagascar were some of his better tracks. That’s why he finished them with vocals. In his mind, at this time, he was thinking “if they don’t like these, I’ll try some of these other ones but why bother with vocals until I know?”

AgesOfTheIce
 Rep: 0 

Re: Axl's optimism in 2002....

AgesOfTheIce wrote:
AtariLegend wrote:
Wagszilla wrote:

"Shacklers Revenge" didn't have vocals until 2007.
"Soul Monster" didn't have vocals until December 2006/2007.
"Scraped" I think fits alongside the two above.
"This I Love" was possibly a 2006-2007 vocal session.

Any source on this? Better for example looking at the credits i very similar (in credits) to the tracks above and vocals by 04 at the latest.

I bet Leave Me Alone, Seven, Thyme and The General all had vocals by 2002 for Beltrami to work on shortly after.

Wagszilla wrote:

Neither "Catcher" nor "This I Love" were destined for the first two albums

I'm not sure there's any proof though on this first two albums stuff and if so, what "first two albums"?

Beltrami said none of the songs he worked on had vocals.

James
 Rep: 627 

Re: Axl's optimism in 2002....

James wrote:
FlashFlood wrote:

This was Axl hedging his bet. He was covering his ass for if the media said these songs were shit. That “some concern” was from his own mind. I have no doubt Axl thought Chinese Democracy, The Blues, and Madagascar were some of his better tracks. That’s why he finished them with vocals. In his mind, at this time, he was thinking “if they don’t like these, I’ll try some of these other ones but why bother with vocals until I know?”

I certainly agree with that. His 180 regarding OMG reinforces this point as well.

Hell...those songs had been discussed and heard by various people a few years before they were performed on tour.

They were clearly A list tracks.

In a post Village Sessions leak world, it brings up an issue we had discussed during the prime of the HTGTH forum....

If he truly had that many songs ready(28), why in the hell did he stick to pushing that same small batch of songs?

In 2001:

Chinese Democracy
The Blues
Madagascar
Riad
Silkworms
Oh My God

In the context of 2000-01...this isn't bad. He's reintroducing GNR to the world on the verge of what at the time felt like a legitimate comeback.

Now it's open to debate whether those were the right songs to get things moving. Having said that, the actual number of new songs... while hardcores may want more....was pretty much right on the money with other major acts promoting a new album on tour.

Fast forward a year to the bizarre fiasco of 2002....

Three of those songs have been dropped!

Nothing new took their place.

Why?

I don't really buy the bootleg excuse fans usually trot out. If that is the correct stance, why perform ANY new material?

Whatever the reason, it became a pattern throughout the entire saga. Every time the tour starts dragging on with little positive press and no forward movement, CD tracks start disappearing in favor of old chestnuts.

It became a form of bait and switch.

It's also the time when many hardcore fans, including me, started questioning how much material that they really had to work with.

When a song like Silkworms is being dropped with no replacement, it doesn't inspire confidence in your material.

We now know what he had.

I have always believed that the Rio 2001 setlist should've been CD heavy. It was the perfect moment to solidify new GNR as its own entity. It should've had a similar approach as Audioslave....play the big hits but hit the audience over the head with your new stuff. It lets everyone know what the deal is now.

The middle ground which led to bait and switch was the wrong approach.

We know Bucket was an advocate for this type of push. It's not surprising that he lost interest quickly.

Once 2002 rolls around, a fresh set of songs was definitely needed.

CD - it's the title track. It stays.

The Blues - The song had clearly been worked on since the previous year's shows. It stays.

Oklahoma - You're dropping Riad on this tour. Replace it with the song chosen as its alternate at last year's HOB show.

IRS - You've dropped Silkworms which never returns. Replace it with this.

If the World - Oh My God has been dropped. Along with Silkworms, a pattern emerges....the industrial/techno stuff has been shelved. Include this ...it fits and it's one of the best songs you have. It's also worthy of appearing on a soundtrack. If not picking If the World, TWAT also fits here.

Madagascar - It's an important song to him. It stays.

Such simple changes improve things immensely. The hardcores rally around him, new songs mean more press, potential for an album is taken more seriously, etc.

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